SR4 Rules, It's me, in the RAW Options

[PirateChef]

Am I the only person who actually likes the SR4 rules as written? Everywhere I look I see people arguing one thing or another. If it's not that technomancers suck, it's that magic is too powerful, or not powerful enough, or that the hacking mechanics are completely different than all other mechanics. Apparently there are even people who have a problem with starting contacts.

I've only been playing SR4 for a little over a year now (DragonCON 06) and nowhere near as much as some of the people on this forum, but int he time I have played I have yet to decide that a houserule was needed for anything.

I've seen technomancers completely take over rival street sams, while at the same time using sprites to give everyone in their own group +6 dice with their weapon of choice. I've seen a mage completely decimate a a fully loaded police squadron, then lose everything to the group of gangers that found his passed out body.

The hacking mechanics are different from everything else, but the Matrix is really like nothing else. And I understand that if I give someone a tool (program) then train them how to use that tool (skill) then thaty don't have to be a genius to get things done with it. No that doesn't truly work with todays computer systems, but it's getting there. I know engineers and architects who know next to nothing about computer systems but use autoCAD programs everyday to design bridges and buildings.

I'm not trying to start a fight with everyone else on the forum. I just want to know if there is anyone else out there who uses SR4 rules as they are written.

[Mistwalker]

Well, depends if you count tweaking the rules section as RAW.

Currently, we are using the RAW, with one of the tweaks.
We haven't hit any situation where house rules were really needed, but I have looked at possible situations that might need them.

I am looking forward to the FAQ and Errata for SM.

[Thanee]

The game definitely works as written. There are some parts, which I'm not totally fond of, but it's not like the game or parts thereof were impossible to play or something.

I use house rules to improve the game and make it closer to what I want from it.

Bye
Thanee

[Deva]

PirateChef, I'm completely with you. Only house ruling I have ever made is when, as GM, I don't want to throw dice when the game mechanics wants to. But those things happen usually when they have advantage to my players (like firing a pistol from not-even-your-grandma-could-miss-from-here position).

But yes, I have no need for any house rulings. Only clarifications for some rules and this place is most excellent for looking them. :)

[Butterblume]

I play with the RAW - almost.

I introduced few houserules, and most of them cover stuff that's not in the rules yet (like not magically healing drain, or how to upgrade cyberware), or is unclear in the RAW (like breaking up skillgroups at chargen).

So, in time, most (hopefully all) houserules of mine will be replaced with the RAW ;).

[lorechaser]

But really, you're getting a skewed view.

This is a forum for the discussion of the SR4 rules. As such, there are going to be a lot of posts about the rules.

If everyone that didn't change things just posted threads that read "Hi, I'm Bob. I play Shadowrun just like in the book" over and over, it would be a pretty boring forum. ;)

People that mod will post their mods. People that don't will read them and comment.

Other than that, it's just clarification and flavor.

Sorta like going to a tech support forum and wondering if anyone has a computer that works. They do. They just don't post nearly as often about it. ;)

That being said, my group uses the RAW for pretty much everything. The only parts we don't are those that aren't clear, where we make judgement calls.

[blakkie]

[Eryk the Red]

I'm sure the rules as written work, but I'm a compulsive tweaker. Given the time, I'll rewrite the whole damn thing to suit my needs. I had to restrain myself just recently from completely rewriting the way Matrix actions work (having already changed the way combat turns resolve and replacing the chase combat rules entirely, as well as tweaking the capabilities of several pieces of gear and cyber). I stick fundamentally with the rules in the book primarily because I'm not going to type up a whole new rulebook to distribute to my players.

It's all a matter of preference, really.

I haven't actually changed any rules with the intention of altering game balance, primarily because I haven't had any balance issues in game. All of my mods have been to make the game flow better, or just to make things the way I like them.

I don't really see the rules as broken or anything, I'm just the sort to manhandle any game system I get my hands on.

[James McMurray]

Well, crap. Somebody said "ammo." This thread's done for. Soon it will be riddled with bullets both realistic and not. Better start a new one. ;)

My group uses the book as written and hasn't had a problem yet. It's been a long time since we played though, we've been doing other games, so we don't have any experience using Street Magic.

[Demonseed Elite]

It's the nature of this forum. We like to talk shop about SR and so you'll usually hear about the mechanical criticisms or how people are tweaking or changing the rules. The people who have no problems at all usually have no reason to start a thread! :)

[Konsaki]

For the most part, I find the RAW to work pretty good. There is alot of grey area that lets the GM play fiat and add his personal spin on the world, and some areas that really could use some more explanations, but for the most part, things work.

Even the Technomancer rules, as is, work fine for me so far. I've played one for 5 months now, though I admit that it's on the forum here, so I've only hacked 4-5 things. You just have to be in a different mindset and play it differently than a hacker to make it work.
Sure I wont argue that a Technomancer is a karma sink if you want to make it just like a hacker by getting all the CFs to 6. Still, you dont have to do that, due to the fact that you can just compile a sprite to do the action for you right on the spot, and for the most part, it will do it better than you could have. I've hacked 3 of the 5 nodes while in AR, so as not to give away my abilities to other people.

When I first started reading into Technomancers, I had that knee-jerk reaction of wanting to lower all the karma costs, but after playing by the book for a while, its made me think up new ways to get things done, which I might have not though up otherwise.

[dog_xinu]

50% of my players are old school shadowrunners (played at least SR2/3 and one actually played snce day one of SR), and the others are new to the game. SR4 is good as is. But (and isnt there always a but?) there are a lot more rule coverage (rules for doing various things) in SR2/3. They are more fleshed out. SR4 is a great as is but not as complete. Now that Street Magic is out, the Magic rules are "more complete". Other areas are not soo complete. That is where i am "filling" in some house rulings (I am not sure if I would call the house rules) until the offical word comes out (via Arsenal, Augmentation, Unwired). Most of the house rulings are basically SR3 rules applied to SR4. I am lucky that so far all my players are staying within the new normal rules and arent expanding to the boundries. Well all but one but he knows more about the SR game systems than I do. And he and I talk about the rulings/rules offline between sessions to make sure we are in alignment for the games.


Gary Gygax (did I misspell his name again?) said it best. "The written rules are a guideline for the DM to use for his world.. nothing more than a strong suggestion..." Yeah I know he was talking about DnD, but it applies to any RPG.


dog

[Chandon]

If you can deal with the base rules as written, good for you.

For me, the Karma / BP imbalance is too big an issue - it makes it so that mathematically there is an "optimal" starting character, and that character ends up being horribly min-maxed. Making characters for RAW isn't fun - they're always wrong because they're unrealistically min-maxed or wrong because they threw away karma to be well rounded. It's not fun.

Other than that, the rest of the rules are reasonably workable. It does bother me that hackers don't need a high logic attribute. Ammo is a bit off. Spirits seem to get more powerful every time I re-read the rules (at least their stats got errata'd down from stuff like force*3) . The rules on movement are the "you move as you act" fuzzy crap that means that every GM will nerf you differently (and exploit the crap out of their visualization of movement with their NPCs), and the way that movement interacts with initiative passes is just janky.

Being able to start at the attribute caps is weird. The result of the mechanics of Encrypt/Decrypt makes no sense. I'm still not sure why you can't just pick an arbitrarily high number and run that many cracked Agents to go do whatever you want in the matrix.

There are a bunch of other things that will probably get clarified in the FAQ (if that ever actually gets published...).

So... I guess the rules are fine if none of your players considers the BP/karma differential and the GM is able to come up with consistent and reasonable rulings whenever the rules get fuzzy. There's still a problem... the posts in this forum are a strong indication that there's no obviously correct answer for a lot of the weird spots.

[lorechaser]

[ShadowDragon]

The RAW requires houserules and tons of GM fiat. There are dozens of instances where the book mentions that a situation is "up to GM discretion" (off the top of my head - glitches, elemental damage, node break in reactions, effectiveness of contacts, half the section on hacking, drug prices and availability, addiction rules). Some parts of the book I love, I just wish it was a little more complete in some areas so I had a benchmark from where I could houserule from. I don't like being required to use so much GM fiat.

Coming from DnD, I also wish they made the system more grid friendly. I've had to make several houserules for that to work also.

[blakkie]

[Steak and Spirit...]

[knasser]

The RAW are untouched as far as I play. I'm happy with them. Now some of the Fluff as Written, I take apart severely. For example, no Dunklezahn for president, no technomancers and Bug City hasn't happened yet because I want to scare the players silly when it does.

[Konsaki]

... So you are playing SR2 with SR4 rules?

[knasser]

[blakkie]

[toturi]

RAW? *whistles*

[laughingowl]

Though in truth one-trick ponies make ideal starting characters.

Sure the are 'wiz-bang' at what they do; however, once the hit the streets they realize life is alot more then just 'hacking' (or slinging-mana, or shooting a pistol).

'Runners' may have better skills in their narrow focus, but most 'Mercs' won't touch them with a 10 foot pole. The Merc know that team-work, cordination, and professionalism mean far more then being 'the fastest gun' or being able to toss the 'biggest fireball'.

Now a 'one-shot' pony has a low life expectency, but then so do most 'noobs' hitting the shadows.

While not as impressive, the well rounded 'ganger' who is smart enough to take jobs he can handle will generaly have a higher life expectancy, but the focus 'prodigy' is a valid concept. Just dont expect to be cut any slack for not having roudned skills... and when is <evil gm mode> expect Mr. Murphy to be visting the one trick pony far more often then the well rounded character.

[laughingowl]

AS to the RAW / House rule.


RAW SR4 is like saying is RAW Amber DRPG.

They both rely totally on a skiled GM. When a very large percentage of your rules say: "gm judgement™' then saying the rules are weak are saying YOU (or your GM) is weak.


With a mature GM and preferably atleast some mature players. RAW is fine, but will need a lot of 'fudge factor'.

There are a lot of things I would make into house rules, as opposed to on the fly 'fudge factor'. Some to help with consitancy and expectations. Some to actually change a few rules.

Do I like SR4 RAW.

It is not a bad system. There are far far far worse systems out there.

There are very few totally 'better' systems out there.

There is a little too little delination between 'noobs' 'professional' and 'the best of the best' for my liking. (Much like Last Unicorns Games: Star Trek an fun fast system, but a 3d6 difference between a wet behind the ears engineer and Scotty aint right. Likewise a 'starting' hacker and Fastjack just dont have enough between them for my total liking.

Editing / layout could have been a little better in RAW and would have helped some of the confusion.

Overal I would give RAW a 8 on a 1-10.

SR3 as written probably a 7, numerous years of built up house rules maybe a 9.

I fully expect to have SR4 housed ruled to a '9' probably quicker then SR3 (since overall the ssytem is cleaner) and probably very shortly after the last main book is out.

[toturi]

The karma/BP issue is a matter of character balance. If you got teammates that can cover your weaknesses and you can avoid those situations that you are weak in, then it works. If you can survive to get the karma, you can rapidly shore up your weaknesses and soon your-used-to-be-unbalanced-but-now-balanced-and-powerful PC is outstripping the balanced-at-chargen PC. But consider, unless your GM smacks down every unbalanced PC with GM fiat, even if the GM does "tests" the PC weaknesses(considering a fair GM that tests all PCs equally), eventually (a small number of) unbalanced but lucky(doesn't matter if it is the Edge or real life lucky) PCs are going to get through.