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ShadowAnt
post Oct 30 2006, 03:10 PM
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Sacrifice (SMp139):
- as written, Drain can be completely eliminated. Is this as intended?
- requires 2 consecutive complex actions, any other action in between negates the attempt. Does the melee attack (1st complex action) have to be declared as a prelude to Sacrifice, or can the initiate just hit something and then decide that was juicy enough to negate their uber-spell Drain in the following action?
- where the donor has something like platelet factories, is the reduction to Drain based on damage dealt or damage taken?

Cannibalize (SMp140):
- "functions just like Sacrifice". Does this mean it requires 2 consecutive complex actions, one for melee attack and one to apply the attribute increase?

Your input appreciated...
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Backgammon
post Oct 30 2006, 03:54 PM
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Note: You can add as prefix to all my answers "I would say.."

QUOTE

- as written, Drain can be completely eliminated. Is this as intended?

Yes. It's meant to be very powerful.

QUOTE

- requires 2 consecutive complex actions, any other action in between negates the attempt. Does the melee attack (1st complex action) have to be declared as a prelude to Sacrifice, or can the initiate just hit something and then decide that was juicy enough to negate their uber-spell Drain in the following action?

You need to declare it as being a sacrifice

QUOTE

- where the donor has something like platelet factories, is the reduction to Drain based on damage dealt or damage taken?

Damage taken... The size of the wound is what matters, regardless of what body roll or other damage resistance the victim has.

QUOTE

- "functions just like Sacrifice". Does this mean it requires 2 consecutive complex actions, one for melee attack and one to apply the attribute increase?

Yes
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Wanderer
post Oct 30 2006, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (Backgammon)
Note: You can add as prefix to all my answers "I would say.."

QUOTE

- as written, Drain can be completely eliminated. Is this as intended?

Yes. It's meant to be very powerful.

QUOTE

- requires 2 consecutive complex actions, any other action in between negates the attempt. Does the melee attack (1st complex action) have to be declared as a prelude to Sacrifice, or can the initiate just hit something and then decide that was juicy enough to negate their uber-spell Drain in the following action?

You need to declare it as being a sacrifice

QUOTE

- where the donor has something like platelet factories, is the reduction to Drain based on damage dealt or damage taken?

Damage taken... The size of the wound is what matters, regardless of what body roll or other damage resistance the victim has.

QUOTE

- "functions just like Sacrifice". Does this mean it requires 2 consecutive complex actions, one for melee attack and one to apply the attribute increase?

Yes

However, notice that nothing stops you from declaring all your melee attacks as attempts to perform Sacrifice or Cannibalize, only choosing to abstain from following with the second complex action if the attack's outcome was not worth it. That's the beauty of blood magic metamagics, you don't need to tie up innocent human sacrifices to the sacrificial altar for it to work, you can do it fine by cutting up in combat the scum you'd kill anyway 8) Be an environmentally-conscious Awakened and dutifully recycle all that sweet life-force that would be spoiled anyway, I say :D
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hyzmarca
post Oct 30 2006, 06:00 PM
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In previous editions, the victim had to be willing or helpless. This requirement was carried over along with the Essence Drain but not with Sacrificing, for some reason.
House-ruling it back in makes things more reasonable. Of course, one still has the munchiness of combining Sacrificing with regeneration, either on oneself or a willing donor.
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Triggerz
post Oct 30 2006, 06:55 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Of course, one still has the munchiness of combining Sacrificing with regeneration, either on oneself or a willing donor.

Personally, I'd houserule that regeneration doesn't work when inflicting wounds on yourself or on a willing donor.
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Slithery D
post Oct 30 2006, 07:24 PM
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WHOA. I hadn't realized that SM Sacrifice dropped the requirement that the sacrificee be restrained, drugged, or otherwise helpless/controlled. Mistake or intentional? I'll put in the errata thread to be sure.

As far as regeneration, I prefer magical houserules that can have some sort of imagined metaphysical basis. Cutting yourself not healing "just because" doesn't make much sense. But since magical damage can't be Regenerated, I'd be more than willing to have Sacrifice "pollute" the damage so that it is considered to have been caused by magical means. You've still got some timing issues where you can get in a turn of Regeneration before the pollution kicks in, but you can metaphysically handwave that by claiming the original Sacrifice attack, which must be declared, attaches a sort of magical charge to your attack that has a similar effect on Regeneration as a weapon focus.
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Triggerz
post Oct 30 2006, 07:33 PM
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QUOTE (Slithery D @ Oct 30 2006, 02:24 PM)
As far as regeneration, I prefer magical houserules that can have some sort of imagined metaphysical basis. Cutting yourself not healing "just because" doesn't make much sense.


Well, I was too lazy to type the long explanation, but yeah, your regeneration power is used to fuel the spell rather than to heal you.
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Wanderer
post Oct 30 2006, 07:41 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Oct 30 2006, 07:00 PM)
In previous editions, the victim had to be willing or helpless. This requirement was carried over along with the Essence Drain but not with Sacrificing, for some reason.
House-ruling it back in makes things more reasonable.

IMO Sacrifice and Cannibalize not requiring a willing or helpless subject makes perfect sense, in that it makes blood magic metamagic more PC-friendly. If it can be done as a combat action, not as a cold-blooded ritualistic act, it becomes more easily justifiable. It fits with Twisted and blood magicians/adepts becoming allowed PC options. Moreover, it fits with the nature of the act: if all that is required is slashing wide open a blade wound and/or ripping away some blood or flesh, it does ot stand to reason that the subject be required helpless.

Morevoer, the scales balance out: if it's easier for Awakened PC to use blood magic in combat, it's also easier for NPC Awakened to use it on PC and their associates :D

No, I don't see the reason why blood magic should be houseruled. It's not that much more powerful than Centering, Shielding, Absorption, or Infusion, and it has allowed a falvourful magical technique to expand from a tool only fit for cackling babies-eating Horror priests NPCs to a cool trick fitting a much wider array of character types, such as Druid, Asatru, Voodoo, and Aztec warrior-mages PCs.
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Wanderer
post Oct 30 2006, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE (Slithery D)
WHOA. I hadn't realized that SM Sacrifice dropped the requirement that the sacrificee be restrained, drugged, or otherwise helpless/controlled. Mistake or intentional? I'll put in the errata thread to be sure.

I object to it being a mistake in need of an errata, barring explict acknowledgement by the author. IMO it fits and complements the other changes to the Twisted rules fine.
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hyzmarca
post Oct 30 2006, 08:24 PM
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Self-Sacrificing was once viable if you wanted to allow "good" characters to use the metamagic. Worlds Without End provides a decent example of self-sacrificing to power spells in the heat of combat. Unfortunately, this doesn't work very well with the new rules.

Inflicting one box of certain damage on yourself to negate one box of potential damage makes no sense. In those situations where physical damage is preferable to stun damage overcasting is usually the best solution. It is only in the rare case where both of your monitors are nearly full and you have to split the drain between both monitors to be safe that self-sacrificing is useful.

In previous editions, Sacrificing reduced the force of the spell for the purpose of calculating drain. Using this instead of a reduction in DV would make self-sacrificing viable since it allows one to overcast at stun drain.
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Synner
post Oct 30 2006, 09:15 PM
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If you really want a game mechanics reason for self-Sacrificing you might want to consider that healing Drain damage by magical means is impossible (yeah, it'll be confirmed in the next errata), but healing a knife wound with magic isn't. It is entirely circumstancial though, depending on the situation this fact can be quite useful or completely useless.
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Slithery D
post Oct 30 2006, 09:39 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Oct 30 2006, 03:24 PM)
Inflicting one box of certain damage on yourself to negate one box of potential damage makes no sense. In those situations where physical damage is preferable to stun damage overcasting is usually the best solution.  It is only in the rare case where both of your monitors are nearly full and you have to split the drain between both monitors to be safe that self-sacrificing is useful.

Sacrificing is also useful because unlike overcasting damage, it can be magically healed.

Edit: Uh, duh, read the whole thread before replying...
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Slithery D
post Oct 30 2006, 09:46 PM
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Also: "Monitors nearly full" can include monitor not full at all but facing a massive amount of stun drain. The most common circumstance? (Re-)Binding great form spirits. At Force 6 you're facing an average DV of 12, with a very real risk of 15 or 18, and 21 is going to happen eventually. Chopping some of that off into a healable pool that will also help you stay conscious may seem like a good deal, although you'd still be better off taking the time to kidnap some gutterpunk for the task.

Of course, real men use self Sacrifice to cast a Force 16 Napalm spell.
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Wanderer
post Nov 1 2006, 01:31 AM
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QUOTE (Synner)
QUOTE (Slithery D)
Possible errata but probably not: Was the new Sacrifice power really supposed to drop the former requirement that the victim be restrained, drugged, or otherwise controlled? This makes it much easier (albeit not safer) to use when you can chop at an enemy rather than carry one around with your or have to tack a whack out of yourself or an ally.

This was intentional.


:D :D :D 8) 8) 8)

Long live the Asatru berserker-ganner blood mystic adept !!!
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fistandantilus4....
post Nov 1 2006, 01:42 AM
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The new blood-meta-magics also do a lot for magical vamp groups like the Ordo. Power Leech, that's good stuff. Or worse, a vamp that drains a bunch of victims before the combat, stats go way up, powers on top of that. bad mojo.
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