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> Hard Caps
Prime Mover
post Nov 3 2006, 05:25 PM
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Maybe missing this on forums, Attributes and skills seem to have hard cap. What about initiation, magic/resonance ,matrix programs and the like? If not not hard capped anywere whats everyone doing in own games?


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Moon-Hawk
post Nov 3 2006, 05:29 PM
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Programs have, well, let's call them "soft caps" of 6. You can't get higher than 6, but 7's or 8's may exist, but the government/military has them.
Initiation/magic/resonance don't have caps, but most people (not all people!) feel that the problem this potentially causes is more of a theoretical problem than an actual problem. Between the diminishing returns and the incredibly high karma costs, characters will either die or retire 99% of the time before this becomes an issue.
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Wakshaani
post Nov 3 2006, 05:44 PM
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You can also apply caps, if you want.

For example, to balance things out a bit, I added Magic to the Metahumanity stats, with all but Elves and Trolls getting a 1/6 (9) Magic Attribute. Trolls get a 1/5 (7) while Elves get a 2/7 (10) Magic Attribute. Helps give trolls the old weakness they had against magic, to a degree, and shows off the Elven strength for magic that, currently, Dwarves actually own them in.

Added in "Magical Prodigy" as well, which raises your racial Magical cap by 1.

Since Initiate grades are limited by your magic stat, this hard caps Initiates at Rank 9, by and large, and allows you to figure out where things lie from there, like normal.

Note that this makes dragons, and especially Great Dragons, properly spooky. A Great with his natural magic of 12 can push it to an 18 with Initiation, and thus can be a garde *18* Initiate, giving it access to things that Metahumanity can barely dream of.

To reach these levels, mind you, a PC magician is gonna need a long, long time (What's the cost for raising your magic by 5 points and getting 9 levels of Initiation, again?) and likely will never hit the limit, but, you'll have it there if you need it.

Of course, YMMV and all that.
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Draconis
post Nov 3 2006, 05:54 PM
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QUOTE (Wakshaani)
You can also apply caps, if you want.

For example, to balance things out a bit, I added Magic to the Metahumanity stats, with all but Elves and Trolls getting a 1/6 (9) Magic Attribute. Trolls get a 1/5 (7) while Elves get a 2/7 (10) Magic Attribute. Helps give trolls the old weakness they had against magic, to a degree, and shows off the Elven strength for magic that, currently, Dwarves actually own them in.

Added in "Magical Prodigy" as well, which raises your racial Magical cap by 1.

Since Initiate grades are limited by your magic stat, this hard caps Initiates at Rank 9, by and large, and allows you to figure out where things lie from there, like normal.

Note that this makes dragons, and especially Great Dragons, properly spooky. A Great with his natural magic of 12 can push it to an 18 with Initiation, and thus can be a garde *18* Initiate, giving it access to things that Metahumanity can barely dream of.

To reach these levels, mind you, a PC magician is gonna need a long, long time (What's the cost for raising your magic by 5 points and getting 9 levels of Initiation, again?) and likely will never hit the limit, but, you'll have it there if you need it.

Of course, YMMV and all that.

Caps on magic. Ouch, that hurts. Even if they're super high the idea rubs me the wrong way.
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Moon-Hawk
post Nov 3 2006, 05:58 PM
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QUOTE (Wakshaani)
Trolls get a 1/5 (7) while Elves get a 2/7 (10) Magic Attribute.

I don't like this part. I don't plan on using any of it, but I don't have any problem with the rest of it, either. I've considered the same house-rule myself.
In my experience and opinion, elves are overrepresented enough as it is, they don't need any more bonuses. But maybe your players aren't elf-fans like mine.
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Prime Mover
post Nov 3 2006, 07:18 PM
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Not sure about the whole racial caps thing...but like idea of capping stat around 9 and allowing quality that lets you go one above max. Sheer karma cost at this lvl seems like reaching it is definetly a lifetimes worth of work or more.
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fool
post Nov 3 2006, 07:30 PM
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QUOTE
Since Initiate grades are limited by your magic stat, this hard caps Initiates at Rank 9, by and large, and allows you to figure out where things lie from there, like normal

there is no hard cap for magic (or resonance for that matter). magic is limited by 6+ initiate grade (- rounded up value of any essence lost.) The 9 is the limit for human physical and mental stats.
Initiate grade is limited by magic ration, but you can pay for metanmagic techniques without initiating, just get that initiate level up pretty hich before hand to make it worthwhile.
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Prime Mover
post Nov 3 2006, 07:50 PM
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Sorry bout that just went back and read that over, 6 starting max, I might allow except. att. quality to affect it it .
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Wakshaani
post Nov 3 2006, 10:55 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Nov 3 2006, 12:44 PM)
Trolls get a 1/5 (7) while Elves get a 2/7 (10) Magic Attribute.

I don't like this part. I don't plan on using any of it, but I don't have any problem with the rest of it, either. I've considered the same house-rule myself.
In my experience and opinion, elves are overrepresented enough as it is, they don't need any more bonuses. But maybe your players aren't elf-fans like mine.

Elves are basicly non-existant here. Orks, for combat classes, but if they cast spells, it's all Troll or Dwarf, with nary a human or Elf in sight.

So, a small penalty to Trolls (Who used to cap at 4's in Cha, Int, and 5 Will, an edition ago) works for me, then Elves, who get a tad shafted on benefit vs cost, get a magical boost. (The +1 Agi is nice, the +2 Cha seems to barely exist for most games I've seen.)

The Magic cap of 9, unless you had Exceptional Attribute, tho?

That feels *right*.


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Steak and Spirit...
post Nov 3 2006, 11:07 PM
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QUOTE (Wakshaani)
So, a small penalty to Trolls (Who used to cap at 4's in Cha, Int, and 5 Will, an edition ago) works for me, then Elves, who get a tad shafted on benefit vs cost, get a magical boost. (The +1 Agi is nice, the +2 Cha seems to barely exist for most games I've seen.)

By "Shafted in Stats", did you really mean: "Have the highest rating in the most widely used attribute, and have no downside other than having to start out with charisma at 3?"

Because, that doesn't really strike me as 'shafted'. No offense intended. It could be years of listening to D&D fankids run on and on about elves, but my sympathy for the 'elf plight' (And the players who play them nearly exclusively) has been entirely minimalized.
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Wakshaani
post Nov 3 2006, 11:59 PM
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Well, let's see.

Humans get +1 Edge (10 pt value) for free.

Orks get +3 Bod (30 pts), +2 Str (+20 pts), and low light for 20 points.

Dwarves get +1 Body (10 pts), +2 Str (20 pts), +1 Willpower (10 pts), thermographic, and resistances, but stubby legs, for 25 pts.

Trolls get +4 Body (40 pts), +4 Str (40 pts), Thermo, reach, natural armor, and faster movement, for 35 pts.

Elves get +1 Agi (10 pts), +2 Cha (20 pts) and lowlight vision.

All told, Humans are at +10, Elves even, Orks at +30 pts, Dwarves +15-ish, and Trolls at, geeze. +40 or so? More?

Elves are the only ones who break even, instead of a boost. Mind you, Agility is a VERY used stat, but, for the backstory, the Elves are supposed to be the best magicians when, in practice, Dwarves own them.

Giving Elves a free point of Magic if they have a magical quality encourages more magician Elves (Who, it should be noted, don't used Agility all that much) and makes them closer to on-par with the other races.
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Steak and Spirit...
post Nov 4 2006, 12:45 AM
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Well, yes.

But you're overlooking the increased attribute cap that goes along with agility, and that you'll find nearly every skill in the entire book (Only a slight exageration) is linked to Agility. Hell, they even did away with the old tried and true link between melee and strength and gave it to agility.

So, once again, Elves are hardly worse for the wear from their little journey into ShaftLand™.

If you can stomach playing an elf, then it's a pretty sweet deal, really. You're essentially able to buy 230 points worth of attributes, increase you Agility stat, which is in many ways the God-of-All-Stats, and what do other metahumans get? Improvements to an attribute that can be mostly replicated by wearing heavier armor? ...Yeah, pretty easy call there. Or, wait, alternately, they can -punch- something harder? Neat.

Unfortunately that increase to strength or body for the other metahumans doesn't matter much unless you're trying to bring an anime-style-greatsword into gunfight. Inwhich case, I hope you don't get blood all over the persian.

QUOTE
Giving Elves a free point of Magic if they have a magical quality encourages more magician Elves (Who, it should be noted, don't used Agility all that much) and makes them closer to on-par with the other races.


Can we give Human's back their doubled-karma pool? That would be sweet.

Anyway, all of that aside: Elves and Magic - They live the longest. Therefore, they have the most time to accumulate karma. They spend that karma on magic. *shrug*. Whatever.

One of the saving graces of SR4 is the rise of Orkploitation. Perhaps we'll even get to get Elfbashing incorporated into canon pretty soon, if the game developers can end their honeymoon with fantasy, and focus a bit more on the gritty side of a dark future.

EDIT: On second thought, perhaps canon Elfbashing would not be a good call. I would hate to think of the 'I am an Elf. I am so misunderstood' character types that would be generated. And God forbid they SURGED.
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Glyph
post Nov 4 2006, 04:16 AM
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I think elven and troll Attribute maximums already do a pretty decent job of giving elves a boost and trolls a handicap. Remember, Charisma can be a drain-resisting Attribute now. Elves used to rule at conjuring, while dwarves ruled at spellslinging. But now, elves can be the best at both. Trolls, on the other hand, have limits on Charisma, Intuition, and logic, so they are hosed no matter what they pick as their drain Attribute.
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Konsaki
post Nov 4 2006, 05:51 AM
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I cant remember, but does it state specificly that the drain stat must be mental?
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Da9iel
post Nov 4 2006, 05:58 AM
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Yes.
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Konsaki
post Nov 4 2006, 06:11 AM
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Can you point out that reference for me? I'm being a bit lazy right now. :D
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Glyph
post Nov 4 2006, 07:03 AM
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Page 170, under Drain Attribute. Heh. Too bad for trolls - if trolls could roll Willpower and Body to resist a spell, they would be pretty damn effective casters, at least as far as soaking Drain.
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Dissonance
post Nov 4 2006, 09:03 AM
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I don't know what it is about dwarves, really. Seriously, aside from the movement speed penalty? What's not to like about them? Almost entirely positive things for a fairly low cost.

I'm pretty sure that nobody wants to play dwarves is because they're short. Not because of the stat penalties, but because they're stubby little bastards. I know that I wouldn't even touch them in d20.

But, yes. Me? I'm happy that elves are starting to take a backseat to orks and other folks. Elves just rub me the wrong way, as they're traditionally presented as, well. Some sort of highly desired ubermensch species. Do not like the native lands, except for the fact that they're basically collapsing in on themselves.
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Butterblume
post Nov 4 2006, 11:45 AM
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I love playing dwarfs in SR. All my chars (that have not been designed for a specific campaign) have been dwarfs since SR2, except my first one (human indian tribe warrior archetype from one of the SR2 books).
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knasser
post Nov 4 2006, 12:52 PM
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I've got a very good Dwarf mage character. I see no reason for dwarves to be considered bad at magic other than some D&D hang-ups. In Norse mythology (and some others), dwarves were highly magical creatures.

Elves are a good buy. They have higher caps in useful attributes and few social penalties. Trolls have some great stat bonuses if you need a character with those attributes, but they have some big counterbalances:

Deliberate Social Prejudice (refusal to admit to clubs, sports event, no dates)
Inadvertant Social Prejudice (no troll-sized taxi available, the only troll seats in the the restaurant already taken, etc.)
Targeting (second only to geek the mage is LMG the troll)
Infiltration ( "I hide behind the... uh," )
Cover ( "I hide behind the... uh," )
Confined spaces (sorry this building is pre-awakening. The ceiling is only 8' so -1 dice pool, please)
Minority race ("So we have twelve trolls living on this block. Frag it, lets question all of 'em" - Lonestar).

Now orcs are cool so long as you ditch your preconceptions and listen to what the rules say, rather than what you learnt from D&D. Actually, I think that's a good rule of thumb for all the races (including dragons).
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