Two is the new Three..., ...Joe Average NPC Stats. Options

[Steak and Spirit...]

Is three really the 'average' attribute for a Metahuman? Well no, not if you evaluate the mean average between attributes rated between 1 and 6. It isn't hard to note that 3 would actually be just below the mean, while 4 would be just above it, so if we round down we force the whole number of 3 as average.

However, I'm wondering if perhaps with the way the mechanics of the system are currently set up, somewhere between 2-3 might be a bit more appropriate as average.

This becomes more apparent after examining that:

1) Player Characters are always considered to be 'exceptional', or 'Above Average'.

2) 300 Build Points are assigned for Player Character in a street level campaign.

So.

Comparing Shadowrun 3rd edition to Shadowrun 4th Edition can be, at times, like comparing apples to oranges. But if you can reach back into the recesses of your mind, you'll recall the Priority system for character Generation. On the subject of Attributes, at the height of the spectrum, a character could receive 30 points to spread around, while at the bottom end, there were 18 points to use. It was assumed that 'Joe Average' NPCs used the bottom tier for creation, and thus many NPCs would find themselves with a string of 3s, perhaps a 2s, and maybe as a result of that 2, a 4 to offset it.

Is it possible that believing that '3' is the average level of an attribute is a false assumption, held-over from the previous edition?

Well, in Shadowrun 4th Edition, there is no varying degree of levels of attributes. Shadowrunners will almost entirely always use every last BP they can towards Attributes. Meanwhile, NPC creation does not afford the luxury of always maxing out attributes.

Consider that it takes 120 Build Points to create a character that has four attributes rated at 3, and four attributes rated at 2. If we incorporate both point #1, and point #2 from above, then we've got to consider that an 'Average, everyday' NPC may very well have accumulated less than 300 Build Points in the course of their lifetime. Perhaps 200 Build Points would be too little, but perhaps 250 Build Points may be a bit more appropriate?

If, and I understand that this is operating under an assumption, a Baseline NPC had 250 Build Points to begin, then we're looking at having effectively spent their maximum allotted BPs on Attributes, just bringing them up to a split of 2's and 3's. And even if we were to allow them to be created with the full 300 BPs, ignoring point #1, they still won't have enough BPs to put 3's across the board. Let that sink in a moment, because that's important.

If a 'street level' campaign Build Point total is implemented to create a more 'street level' character, which is closer to an 'average' NPC, it's still impossible to create a character which is composed of completely 'Average' attributes. Which is more likely? That 'Street Level' Characters represent below average individuals? Or that our scale of comparison is incorrect?

This supports the notion that in reality, an attribute at 3 is acting as the 'mathematical' mean, but does not represent the real 'average', and instead, the scale we're using to judge what composes an 'average' attribute has been flawed to begin with.

If we evaluate the scale, by ignoring the 'mathematical' mean, and instead evaluate it under a 'practical' mean, it addresses several issues in the system that very well could have been misconceptions. First an attribute of '3' is no longer the average attribute, but instead the expected Attribute corresponding to the field of expertise of an NPC. Second, an attribute of '2' is no longer a below average attribute, but instead excepted attribute corresponding to an aspect of an NPC that is not integral to their field of expertise. In other words, 2.5 is your 'average' attribute, which is spread around a character into whole numbers in the form of 2s and 3s.

What does that mean? It means that by taking this to heart, the game ceiling has been lifted a little, if for no other reason than a change of perspective. And perhaps by accepting this perspective on attributes, it may be easier when presenting future improvements on the character generation portion of our latest edition of Shadowrun.

[Butterblume]

I belive you are making a lot of assumptions which are questionable.

[Steak and Spirit...]

It's possible. Would you care to point them out, and demostrate why they are invalid assumptions?

[OneTrikPony]

I've run into this exact thing in the last couple of days. I've been using the conversion rules to x-fer NPCs from MJLBB to SR4 in prep for my campaign.

for anyone who doesn't know, to convert a character from V3 to V4 you multiply both Attributes and Skill ratings by .66 or two thirds so yes I'd say that by the conversion rules the average SR4 character stat is 2 out of 3.

The interestign thing is that, while most of the characters in MJLBB have average Abilities of 3, they also have average skills around 3 but the SR4 BBB says that a professional skill rating is 3 so i don't know what the actual intention is.

(edit:)Personaly I don't think I'll like having average attributes of two for NPCs. I don't have the math skills you do but my intuition tells me that with a dice pool of 4 as opposed to 6 makes npc glitches something like 30% more common.

[FrankTrollman]

A 3 Attribute and Skill is indeed an average professional. That's not the same as Joe average.

So a beat cop comes in there with stats at 3 and skills of 3 (SR4,, p. 275 and 282), while a man-on-the-street has stats and skills of 2 (SR4, p. 275).

So very roughly:

Some Guy: Dicepool 4
Professional Guy: Dicepool 6
Elite Guy: Dicepool 8-10 (Shadowrunners are here mostly)
Specialist Superninja: Dicepool 12+
Prime Runner: Dicepool 15-20

You can start a character tweaked out into the Prime Runner category in a task or two, but it's very difficult to count as even elite in a broad range of tasks.

-Frank

[Serbitar]

I see no conceptual reason why attributes of joe average and a professional should be so much different. Slightly, yes, but the difference comes with difference in skills, not in attributes.

The examples given in SR4 rulebook are extremely exagerated if you take a gaussian attribute distribution centered on 3 with a standard deviation of 0.5

[Thyme Lost]

With only 4 dice, you have about 80% chance of getting at least one success.
1-(4/6)^4=.802469...

With only 6 dice, you have about 91% chance of getting at least one success.
1-(4/6)^6=.9122085...

With 12 dice, you have about 99% chance of getting at least one success.
1-(4/6)^12=.992292......

So, someone who is just an average joe, how likely should they be for getting at least one success?
Don't have much to add other that that, I've been awake for less than 5 minutes...
Don't know if I was helpful.

Thyme Lost

[Steak and Spirit...]

[Apathy]

[Butterblume]

I really don't like spaghetti post, so I try to be short.

[Konsaki]

Personally, I think that 3 is the average Attribute for people in 4th, but 0 is the average Skill level. Sure your NPC might know a select few things, like a mechanic will know auto mechanic skill, but will he know longarms skill, probably not.

[Butterblume]

0 is the average (standard) skill level for the untrained. This a fine but important distinction ;).

[Steak and Spirit...]

[knasser]

Average attribute is 2, I think. There's no actual reason for the average to be the midpoint of the possible range, as was originally suggested, that's for sure. After all, it's not the case that humanity is evenly distributed from 1-6 in their attributes is it? Perhaps 1 in a thousand have a score of 6. Just to take Strength as a specific example, the amount of difference that rigorous and long-term training can make is enormous. There has to be more on the upper side of the strength scale (stronger than average) than there is on the lower side (weaker), for it to represent this. Same goes for other attributes.

Steak and Spirits also had it right when he pointed out that if people in a profession where attributes matter have 3's, then 3 must be slightly above average because the slightly higher stats that average distribution gives them lead them into that career. (I think S&S put it better).

[Serbitar]

[Thyme Lost]

[Steak and Spirit...]

[Glyph]

I think looking at the sample NPCs kind of supports Steak and Spirits' assumptions. Granted, it's a relatively small sample. However, NPCs such as bartenders, bloggers, or humanis lieutenants have 140 for stats, not enough to even have 3's across the board. As it is, they have 4's in places, but one 4 means they have three 2's, and two 4's mean they have four 2's.

Still, I wouldn't give NPC's straight 2's across the board - rather, I would say that most Joe Average NPCs will tend to have a bit lower than 3 on average - a mix of 3's and 2's, with more 2's if one or two Attributes are 4's. Skills will probably be around 3 or so for skills related to the NPC's profession, with combat skills either non-existant or at 1 or 2 at most. Occasionally a skill will be higher for an NPC's main function - as high as 4 for an active skill (such as computer), or 5 for a knowledge skill representing a major interest of the NPC (such as exotic mixed drinks for a bartender, or conspiracy theories for a paranoid data haven admin). Also keep in mind that some NPCs will be less than average - Humanis goons, teen gangers, brainwashed cultists, squatters, etc.

[Steak and Spirit...]

[Blade]

I mostly disagree with what's being said here.

First, I think that the attribute scale was totally broken in SR3 (either that or you were playing superheroes). With the worst priority for attributes, you were "an average human". But with just 3 in your attribute, you couldn't do much. There were two ways to deal with that : either have superheroes PC or consider 4 or 5 as the average for NPC.

I don't consider that runner are superheroes nor surhuman. They just have something special : magic, cyberware, skills (especially since that NPC can go with 0 (untrained) in a lot of skills while most runner need at least perception/dodge/infiltration). They tend to be a bit better (at least kept in good shape) than the average man on the street (if they want to survive), but they aren't that different (especially for beginners). A successful corporate salesman may be created with 300 BPs, it's just that he won't spend it in Longarms and Move by Wire but in charisma, willpower, influence skill group, lots of knowledge skill and some high connection contacts.

Even if 3 is the average on the whole, it doesn't mean that everyone has 3 in each attribute. Most office worker will tend to have a rating of 2 in Strength/Body (because they don't do the minimal weekly exercises needed to keep in shape), but may have some 4 in their mental attributes.

[Wakshaani]

Two things.

First, the 300 and 500 point numbers are a tad off. Run with 320 and 480 instead (80% and 120% of teh baseline, respectively) ... this will give you the correct level, where you can have 3's across the board, or scimp a bit for a focus... teh aforementioned office worker (Or Decker or Wage Mage) who has Body and Strength a bit low, but has an improved Logic or Willpower.

Second, in teh Attribute section, they have a list, where '3' is listed as the normal level, and under skills, 3 is considered a professional in the field. Someone with Logic 3 and Knowledge Skill: Accounting (3) is a CPA and ready to roll. They can just toss 4 dice for a success for Very Easy tasks (The daily grind) and, if they want to actually burn the midnight oil, they can roll all 6 dice and shoot for a 2nd success for something tricky.

Your "Best guy in the company" level will have an attribute of 4 (Exceptional) and a skill of 4 (Veteran Professional) ... Mortimer Sneed, CPA for ten years and known for never missing a deduction, he has 8 dice, letting him just *buy* 2 successes, or work a bit and go for the third for something REALLY hard.

The best guys in teh city (Not the VERY best guy, but that upper eschelon) will have a 4/5, 5/4, or even a 5/5 split, letting them still buy 2 successes at will, but reliably getting a third when they try. And guys that good? They TRY.

That mythical 12 dice level, tho ... that's somebody special. Presidential contenders, World Series MVP pitchers, Olympic-level archers ... that is some RARE talent.

As a general rule of thumb, 6 dice in the profession will handle the average joe, pushing into 7 or 8 for a seasoned vet.

[FrankTrollman]

[Thyme Lost]

[Steak and Spirit...]

[Serbitar]