 300 or 400?, Moira the Troll Support Mage |
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 Nov 8 2006, 12:08 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 174 Joined: 10-September 06 Member No.: 9,349  |
OK, so after my last post on the campaign I've started running, I realized I needed to re-work the NPC Troll Support Mage I'd created to help the two players make it throuh On The Run. So I made 2 versions. A 400 point version, and a 300 Point version, since I read somewhere on these boards that NPCs are supposed to be 300. (I think?) Anyhow, here's the two:
So - any thoughts or comments on which I should use? |
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Nov 8 2006, 12:10 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 281 Joined: 9-September 06 Member No.: 9,346 |
In a general sense, unless you -need to- as a GM, it's best to use NPCs that will not overshadow the accomplishments of your PCs. So. If you feel that the 300 BP version of your NPC will suffice the role it will play, I'd recommend using that one.
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Nov 8 2006, 12:14 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
but don't feel bound by one number or the other.
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Nov 8 2006, 12:21 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 174 Joined: 10-September 06 Member No.: 9,349 |
Well here's the deal. I've built BOTH of them to do nothing more than support the two PCs.
Big difference is that 400 Point Moira will heal and buff better. You'll notice that she has NO skills to offer which will push the plot forward or help solve anything. Best thing she can do other than buff is scout in Astral, or summon spirits. Basically, she's there to offset (somewhat) magic bad guys in the campaign. The one exception to this is that 400 Point Moira has Shapechange:Bear. I'd only use it, however, if she fails her save against going berzerk when her comrades take massive damage. I'll admit I'd LIKE to play 400 point Moira - but if she'd take fun away from the PCs, I'll step her down to 300. |
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Nov 8 2006, 12:53 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,316 |
I usually don't bother with build points for an npc, just give them whatever stats and skills you want (usually lower than the pc's but not always.)
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Nov 8 2006, 12:56 AM
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#6
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Personally, I don't think the version you use is going to matter all that much. How the NPC functions is entirely up to you as GM. I'm reasonably sure from what little you posted on the subject that you're not looking to use the NPC to "save the day" and constantly upstage the PCs.
With that in mind, I'd probably go with the 400 BP version, since that's what PCs use to build their characters. Especially if the character that those numbers support is supposed to be equally competent to the runners. If, on the other hand, you are introducing the character from any kind of "new to the shadows" or "inexperienced" perspective, the 300 BP version might be appropriate as a way to quantify those aspects of her character mechanically. |
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Nov 8 2006, 01:12 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
I generally take this route also. I will index card 'common skills/spells/strength' to keep consitancy. But I will often keep them generic and just note strength weakeness / specialties and then roll what I feel like when it comes to using them. Now if the NPC is going to be 'part of the team' and almost always present I build them at same BP (though hardly min/maxxed and usually spread out more then any player will) and then 75% Karma. Then again I guess I have played way to many years of Amber to let little things like NPC stats worry me :-) |
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Nov 8 2006, 04:12 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 147 Joined: 27-February 06 From: Lost in Time Member No.: 8,312 |
I see take a look at "friends of foes" section of BBB (or atleast another look). To find what you are looking for.
Also look at page 277, Prime Runner. The is a nice chart on page 277. Going off of the chart, you shouldn't give your NPC less than 320 BP, unless you really want to. (320=.80*400) If your looking for "Equal", but a little less, go with 360 BP. 360=.90*400. You already have a 300 and 400 BP char. I say just still with the 400 BP, I think you'll have more fun, just make sure you don't step on the PCs toes, to much, and all will be good. |
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Nov 8 2006, 05:23 AM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I would go with the 400 point version - you've limited the character already, simply by designing it for a supporting role. The 400 point version will be good enough at healing and buffing to be useful to the group. Plus, I think the shapechange/bear spell is good, in that a shaman with a mentor spirit with "goes berserk" as a disadvantage should be able to do something if that happens.
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Nov 8 2006, 08:23 AM
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#10
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Ok, I missed the original thread. Mostly because when I first saw it it was already into page 2 and I didn't feel I had the time to sift through it. So could you sum up exactly why you think there needs to be an NPC support mage at all? Are these PCs not generalized enough? Are you getting them into runs that you shouldn't be? Don't either of them have First Aid, or at least have dropped the chump change for a good Medkit (which requires no PC skill what-so-ever)? What about just tossing them extra BP/karma with the explicit understanding by the players that it is for broadening their characters? Any NPC like this is at serious risk of becoming a GMPC. Even with your best intentions. My suggestion is to save yourself the headache of trying to avoid it and look elsewhere for the solution. |
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Nov 8 2006, 08:36 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 174 Joined: 10-September 06 Member No.: 9,349 |
Thanks for the concern, Blakkie.
Both players created similar characters. They're both skilled in BnE and combat, but that's about it. Neither has First Aid, neither has purchased anything more than Trauma patches. One has a DocWagon contract, the other does not. One player is also sort of running an NPC Hacker who is his character's brother. We use him only to accomplish minimal hacking needs, and I'm trying to not put them in situations where they'll depend on him heavily. Moira is built as a character to enable them to stretch their legs a bit and as a failsafe if they do anything stupid. Neither of them is familiar with the Shadowrun world, and this campaign that I'm running is more of a test-campaign for all of us to get familiar with the system. Thus, it's full of constant revision and reconsideration. As far as I'm concerned, Moira will only be with the team through On the Run, unless they request otherwise. Part of THIS reason is that I wanted to run through On the Run i preparation for a possible VOIP online campaign with some other friends and the need to familiarize myself with On The Run. Naturally, I am, at the same time, trying to learn the ropes of SR4 in as many ways as possible. I certainly understand that GMNPC overshadowing PCs is a problem endemic to RPGs. It's something that i've tried to avoid in the way I've built Moira - but your concern is warranted. That being said, I will point out that Moira can't do much more than heal and buff. And I make it a point to role play her minimally. As far as providing the players extra BP and such to broaden their characters, I'd rather force them to learn to play within the limitations of a standard character before I start handing them candy. After all, it IS a learning process for them too. :P |
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Nov 8 2006, 08:55 AM
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#12
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
One of the guys dropped a minimum of 5Gs on Doc Wagon but passed on getting a Medkit(6) for 600 :nuyen: ? Suggest to them to review the Medkit descripton on page 329 (a great tip for noobs is also to read the First Aid rules).
What do you think this NPC is then? C-R-U-T-C-H. Give them a broader set of Skills and they can learn by doing with their own character! This isn't "candy", this is making up for the fact that it is a small team going up against something that was intended for a larger team.
Oh boy, that just SCREAMS GMPC in the making. :( Just put them on simpler runs againts opponents that aren't the sharpest tools in the shed and then at the end of the game session give them pointers straight up. What they did well, what they might think about improving on.
Others can speak more directly about On The Run, but it sounds like you'd need more than just a NPC mage to pull noobies out of the fire on it. You'd need a GMPC mage. :( Apparently it's not too bad until the very end, and then things can go very bad if the PCs make the wrong choice (or just a little messy if they have a solid 5 member team).
If that is all she is ment to do then she doesn't provide anything that can't be provided by my suggestions. Medkit(6) + tone down the opponents and away you go. But that's just a suggestion. *shrug* Good luck and have fun. |
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Nov 8 2006, 08:55 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
It sounds like the actual problem you have is that your players picked a problem team. If you want to teach the to make more balenced choices then you should take away their safety net. Get rid of the NPC.
If they only have two PCs and one is not a magic user - this is bad. If they only have two PCs and one is a hacker - this is worse. One should be a magic user and one should be a fighter type. No hackers unless you want to give some hacking skills to a street sammie. You can deal with hackers as NPCs just fine. |
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Nov 8 2006, 09:02 AM
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#14
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Disagree here. Assuming you have some control over the senario (and as GM you always do). No mage is ok as long as you don't put them up against much in the way of magic opposition. No credible hacking skills though sucks really hard because it puts a big crimp into legwork. Oh, and a lot more productive and less time consuming way of teaching is just to let them know up front, to explain why it can be a problem......and if they still want to play the game as just a slice of SR then let them play just the slice with hints at the full scope for now. Because some people are intimidated by having to pick up and use a magic system as a total noob, especially if they are coming from a game that uses a very different type of magic system. |
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Nov 8 2006, 09:15 AM
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#15
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Go with the 300BP, make her very talisman / fetish / geas dependent. Then you have a plausible way of rendering her useless when you want the players to save the day. Try to build some reasons for her to vanish in to the backstory. |
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Nov 8 2006, 09:41 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
Well if you are tailoring the games to your PCs to that point then they would never have to adapt - you have adapted for them. Magic is such a large part of the setting. It is a part of nearly every megacorp security system. If you want to keep them at street level I could see this but beyond bouncer jobs they would need some magical backup - if for nothing else but to deal with the unexpected. (And to provide the unexpected)
That's why it is called legwork. Frankly I would never allow my PCs to get away with this. The hacker is not there to avoid legwork. They might meet with a contact in the Matrix but they shouldn't circumvent their contacts that way. The only time I would think you would need a hacker with you on the team is if you are breaking in and you need to counter a spyder or you have a complex security system that would be simplier to take over. Otherwise you can use an NPC hacker for finding out that secret info you need to do your run - and then you are using a contact! Mages are always useful and hackers aren't. |
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Nov 8 2006, 05:47 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Eh. It's a game. Let them play what they want to play. I've always been annoyed when people tell me that you have to play certain archetypes. DnD is the worst - Warrior/Thief/Healer/Mage was pretty much required. If you wanted to play something else, hope you're in a group of 5 or more.... Maybe neither of them was interested in magic. That's fair enough. If you force them to play a mage, they may just get a bad taste for SR.... |
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Nov 9 2006, 01:37 AM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Exactly. To me, this is similar to D&D, where you had NPC clerics so much of the time, because you needed one but no one wanted to play one. I mean, it would be one thing if it were five people all playing sammies, but this is just two players. Nothing wrong with NPC supporting characters - especially for roles or aspects of the game that the players simply aren't interested in.
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Nov 9 2006, 03:18 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 174 Joined: 10-September 06 Member No.: 9,349 |
Well, after On the Run I'll definitely be encouraging my players to consider either rebuilding their characters, or starting new ones.
Combat at the end may take care of that for me. :P But as it is, we're already halfway into the Mod as of this past Saturday, so Moira will stay at least through that. Good varying perspectives here, thanks to all of you for helping me process this. |
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