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> What do you think of Horrors?
Do Horrors rock, or do they suck?
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Total Votes: 79
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emo samurai
post Nov 8 2006, 04:23 AM
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I get mixed messages about your opinions of the Horrors. You all hate the "Can we beat them" thread and hold it up as an example of forums bullshit, but they were voted the best magical threat in my threats poll. So do they rock, or do they suck, in your collective opinion?
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 8 2006, 04:42 AM
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QUOTE (emo samurai)
You all hate the "Can we beat them" thread and hold it up as an example of forums bullshit

We do? Since when?

~J
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emo samurai
post Nov 8 2006, 04:43 AM
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I remember a lot of times people did this... I don't remember when.
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Fortune
post Nov 8 2006, 04:43 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
We do? Since when?

You took the words right out of my mouth.
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emo samurai
post Nov 8 2006, 04:44 AM
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Well... I guess I'm wrong...
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Angelone
post Nov 8 2006, 04:52 AM
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I for one don't like them as Shadowrun antagonists. Didn't like the whole SR/ED crossover personally. In Earthdawn they fit because they are a major part of the game. In Shadowrun they don't do it for me.
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Frag-o Delux
post Nov 8 2006, 04:55 AM
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You forgot the "What horros are you talking about? Oh those metaplot things the writers like to bring up all the time."

I dont think the horrors have played any major role in the 16 years I have been playing. So I would say I dont have any opinion on them, especially since we dont run published adventures or read the novels.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 8 2006, 04:58 AM
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QUOTE (emo samurai)
I remember a lot of times people did this... I don't remember when.

Maybe it was in That Other Forum? A lot of people here were major participants in that thread. Hell, I don't think I've ever had more fun in a Dumpshock thread. I got to argue and learn, and I was prompted to buy the Horrors sourcebook, which I still hold as the single best sourcebook I have ever read for any system.

~J
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fistandantilus4....
post Nov 8 2006, 05:12 AM
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QUOTE
which I still hold as the single best sourcebook I have ever read for any system.


agreed

To answer emo's question, I like them when they're used sparingly. Very sparingly in SR. They shouldn't be used (well, in most cases) just as a big nasty monster with brutal powers. They should be damn smart, manipulative, and disturbing.
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mfb
post Nov 8 2006, 05:49 AM
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i don't like them because they're bad guys. there's no moral choices, there; you may as well have the PCs fight vampire Hitler. i prefer to keep black and white morality way, way away from my campaigns, and it's just hard to do that with horrors.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 8 2006, 05:55 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
i don't like them because they're bad guys. there's no moral choices, there

I disagree, but you know that.

~J
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mfb
post Nov 8 2006, 06:03 AM
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i can come up with interesting moral conundrums involving horrors, or even vampire Hitler. you can, too. but most of the times i've seen horrors in a campaign, it's just been a boss battle. so, as a rule, i don't like horrors.
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hyzmarca
post Nov 8 2006, 08:31 AM
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QUOTE (mfb @ Nov 8 2006, 01:03 AM)
i can come up with interesting moral conundrums involving horrors, or even vampire Hitler. you can, too. but most of the times i've seen horrors in a campaign, it's just been a boss battle. so, as a rule, i don't like horrors.

That's not the fault of the Horror, it is the fault of the modules that have used them as bosses.


Well, we've still got the Wraith and the Nomads and that' pretty good. They make decent unnamed Horrors.

Of course, the moral choices need not lie with the Horror itself. The wraith are a good example. Their ability to incite violence leave a moral conundrum of apparently "good" people committing atrocious acts under what may be extreme magical duress or which may be a slight suggestion. Does freeing them from the influence of the Wraith free them from responsibility for their actions? Is it okay to punish someone who was influenced by a Wraith. Is it alright to let them go?

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
To answer emo's question, I like them when they're used sparingly. Very sparingly in SR. They shouldn't be used (well, in most cases) just as a big nasty monster with brutal powers. They should be damn smart, manipulative, and disturbing.


I still like the idea of Mr. Darke's replacement commanding packs of cybered Gnashers as fodder. Not all Horrors are cunning adversaries. Some of them are just mindless beasts.

There is, by canon, at least one Named Horror still around somewhere (Worlds Without End p.140) He hasn't been dealt with that I know of.

Sometimes, I like to think its Nemesis. Sometimes I like to think that its Bonecrown. At the moment, I'm thinking that a naked young woman speaking an unknown language should have been found on the shores of the Caspian Sea by now.
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mfb
post Nov 8 2006, 08:35 AM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
That's not the fault of the Horror, it is the fault of the modules that have used them as bosses.

it's a least partially the horrors' fault, because the horrors themselves are bad guys. i'm not going to say that horrors are one-dimensional, but their morality is; and it's more difficult to make a multi-dimensional landscape using a creature with one-dimensional morals than it would be using a creature with the normal scope. like, vampires and ghouls, in SR? they come pre-packaged with moral dilemma. it's one of their accessories, like those stupid backpacks that all the GI Joes used to come with.
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krayola red
post Nov 8 2006, 08:55 AM
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I think it's good to have a little variety once in awhile, and Horrors provide that option. Complex moral dilemmas are nice and all, but sometimes you just feel like beating the crap out of the bad guy without wondering the whole time if it's the right thing to do.

My opinion: I likes them nasty critters.
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knasser
post Nov 8 2006, 09:12 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
That's not the fault of the Horror, it is the fault of the modules that have used them as bosses.

it's a least partially the horrors' fault, because the horrors themselves are bad guys. i'm not going to say that horrors are one-dimensional, but their morality is; and it's more difficult to make a multi-dimensional landscape using a creature with one-dimensional morals than it would be using a creature with the normal scope. like, vampires and ghouls, in SR? they come pre-packaged with moral dilemma. it's one of their accessories, like those stupid backpacks that all the GI Joes used to come with.


I kind of agree, but I voted Horrors Rock. You can use the Horrors as a coming calamity and find your moral exploration in the in-fighting and betrayals in the face of the disaster. Just at what point will people faced with scarce resources and a fight for survival begin to turn on one another? That's a fascinating opportunity for a morality game based on Horrors.

Also, this horrors source book - did it ever get a PDF release? Might be worth a look.
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Grinder
post Nov 8 2006, 09:47 AM
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There you go:

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/catalog/prod...roducts_id=2150
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wargear
post Nov 8 2006, 10:54 AM
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I'm kinda ambivalent about the issue.

Used sparingly in a cthulhu-mythos-type-cultists-summoning-the-dread-thing-from-beyond kinda way, they can really add to the game. Or if, like we had in one game, you are doing a whole ED rise-of-magic-portents type of event.

As an actual threat the PCs are expected to face in combat? Nah.
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Dog
post Nov 8 2006, 01:30 PM
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I'm with Wargear. A vague, distant threat that only certain, enlightened people are even aware of, their existence influences everything in the runners world, but the runners will never actually see them, and might not even have heard of them.

The horrors are everything, yet they are nothing.
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eidolon
post Nov 8 2006, 03:17 PM
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The horrors might be cool, but as they pertain to SR, my vote is "suck".

I don't particularly care for the ED/SR crossover stuff.
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Kyoto Kid
post Nov 8 2006, 03:55 PM
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...never got into ED, never had the inclination since for the most part the group of people I play with turn to the Other Game when they want to do pure fantasy stuff. Definitely not up to speed or care to be about any ED/SR crossover.

For straight up bad ass horrors in a more "modern" setting (eg the 1930s & up"), we go for the best, CoC.

I believe there have been and are enough good threats out there set in the SR universe to not require those from ED be brought in:

Corps, Toxics, Gangs (yes, even 400 pt characters can have a lot of trouble with gangs), Law Enforcement, Special Forces & Mercs, Pirates, Dragons, GDs (though I would use them very, very sparingly if at all), Manipulative IE's (again used very sparingly), Various Critters & Paranormals, Space (try to not even toss your lunch every waking moment) Environmental (Desert, Arctic, Jungle, Toxic), The Local Urban Brawl team, just to name a few.

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mfb
post Nov 8 2006, 03:59 PM
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QUOTE (emo samurai)
You all hate the "Can we beat them" thread and hold it up as an example of forums bullshit...

forgot to comment on this. i think you're mistaking "forums bullshit" for "oh god please NOT AGAIN".
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Ryu
post Nov 8 2006, 03:59 PM
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They suck in SR. Despite Earthdawn being great.
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DragginSPADE
post Nov 8 2006, 04:05 PM
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I voted against them in SR as well. They were very overdone in a campaign I played in once, and I never want to see them again. (I'll also never again play in a campaign where the GM is a drama major. He loved the demonic corruption of the soul aspect of the Horrors WAY too much.)
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 8 2006, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (emo samurai)
You all hate the "Can we beat them" thread and hold it up as an example of forums bullshit...

forgot to comment on this. i think you're mistaking "forums bullshit" for "oh god please NOT AGAIN".

That is true. Even for awesome discussions, there are only so many times a year one can have them. In this particular case, it's once a year, right around the new year.

~J
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