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> Do you dodge ground targeted weapons?
Nerhesi
post Nov 10 2006, 05:42 PM
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Do you dodge them? If someone fires an auto-cannon 1 meter from your foot?

Do you get to roll anything to dive out of the way? Maybe just reaction? Can you take a full dodge?

Sam W.
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eidolon
post Nov 10 2006, 05:57 PM
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What's the situation? I mean really, if the person isn't firing at you, then mechanically they aren't going to hit you, so anything else is fluff.

You could certainly let the player roll to dodge, but really, it doesn't matter and there's no need unless you're just upping the tension for the scene.
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Nerhesi
post Nov 10 2006, 06:04 PM
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I'm just curious from a balance point of view...

If you are unable to dodge ground targetted attacks.. then people will start landing things 2inches from your feet - (due scatter - net hits)

Just curious for realism as well. Obviously just because it's coming towards you - but no t going to be aimed at your centre of mass - doesn't mean you're not going to have some avoidance..

Sam W.
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ShadowDragon
post Nov 10 2006, 06:17 PM
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Autocannon? That shoots bullets like any other gun. If you hit the ground, you miss; no need to dodge it.

Now grenades are a different story. I houserule that you can't dodge them when the attacker is aiming for the ground. But you CAN use a full defence action to dive and tumble out of the way, where every hit is 1 meter that you move. This action takes your next IP like normal full defence in addition to your movement (which is normally no action in my games), and you are prone.
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mfb
post Nov 10 2006, 06:25 PM
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since the effect of a grenade targeted at your feet with 0 scatter is the same as the effect of a grenade targeted at you with 0 scatter, i would rule that dodging them is also the same.
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ShadowDragon
post Nov 10 2006, 06:41 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
since the effect of a grenade targeted at your feet with 0 scatter is the same as the effect of a grenade targeted at you with 0 scatter, i would rule that dodging them is also the same.

But the problem with this is that if you dodge the grenade, you're still caught in the blast radius. It's not like dodging bullets where you only have to move a matter of inches. To effectively dodge a grenade at your feet you have to move several meters.
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eidolon
post Nov 10 2006, 06:48 PM
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I'd back up the grenade thing.

And as an aside, never confuse the SR dodge mechanic for having anything to do with realism. :)
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Blade
post Nov 10 2006, 07:00 PM
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As I view it :

Dodging bullets that aren't heading your way :
That may just be some "Evil GM" way to act, but I like to just describe the action and rather than saying "Bad guy one shoots PC1" I just say "bad guy one raises his gun in PC1 and PC2 direction and..." and let the player tell me if they go full dodge or not. I don't do it every time, but when characters can't be sure if they're shooted at or not, they may end up dodging while noone is really shooting at them. It seems more natural and interesting this way. (Of course, NPC may do the same).

Dodging grenades :
You're dodging the center of the blast radius. It doesn't matter if guy is throwing the grenade at you or at the tree you stand next to. In any case, you roll your reaction (+ Dodge if case of full defense) and each hit gets your further from the center of the explosion (ie. where you were or where the tree is).

[Grenade addict] anyway, resisting someone who's got grenade won't take your very far, except if you've got more grenades (or use them in a better way).[/grenade addict]
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RunnerPaul
post Nov 10 2006, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE (mfb @ Nov 10 2006, 01:25 PM)
since the effect of a grenade targeted at your feet with 0 scatter is the same as the effect of a grenade targeted at you with 0 scatter, i would rule that dodging them is also the same.

Actually, in SR4, once your successes have reduced scatter to 0, they start staging the damage code up. Is the explosion suddenly getting more forceful because you had a more skilled throw? I don't buy that. What I believe is happening is that the extra successes increasing the damage code represents the difference between a grenade that lands 0 meters from you at your feet, one that goes off 0 meters from you on a good bounce in midair level with your chest, and one that goes off 0 meters from you on a good bounce right in your face.

In situations like that, I let dodging bring the damage back down to the base damage of the grenade, but no further than that. 0 meters of scatter is still 0 meters of scatter.

Also, when a highly successful throw has increased the damage code of the grenade, I only apply the increase to the actual target of the throw. The blast radius for the grenade, and the damage taken at different points in that radius are still measured from the base damage of the grenade.

Yes, this makes grenades pretty nasty in combat. That's how my table likes it.
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ixombie
post Nov 11 2006, 04:27 AM
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I think that sorta makes grenades the be-all-end-all of combat. One thing I like about SR4 is that you can't just pick up the "best" weapon and go on an unstoppable killing spree.

In SR3, things like the SPAS-22, air-timed IPE grenades, and the ruger thunderbolt were just rediculous because of the rules they gave them. You pointed them, fired them, and everyone died.

If you nerf dodging versus grenades, grenades start to have a decisive advantage against every other weapon. A well thrown grenade becomes the ultimate weapon that, I believe, should not exist in SR4. The closest you come is assault rifles and machine guns, but they have to choose between killing your dodge pool or doing tons of damage, and of course they're either loud as hell or you have to deal with recoil. Assault weapons are great, but they're not a no-brainer. If you can't fully dodge a grenade, it starts to become a no-brainer to use grenades since it's the only weapon where that's true.

If your table likes it that's fine, if you prefer realism that's fine. I'm just saying I don't think that houserule fits with the overall balanced nature of SR4 weapons, is all.
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kzt
post Nov 11 2006, 05:40 AM
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QUOTE (ixombie)
I think that sorta makes grenades the be-all-end-all of combat.
[snip]
If you can't fully dodge a grenade, it starts to become a no-brainer to use grenades since it's the only weapon where that's true.

If you allow people to dodge grenades, will you allow them to dodge a 4kg C-15 satchel charge that drops at their feet?

Grenades are really effective. You can't dodge an explosion and it's cloud of fragments, all you can do is try to keep or get something between you and it. The answer is don't be next to a grenade when it goes boom. Don't get in close range shootouts with well armed opponents, particularly if they are on the floor above.

However I happen to think that grenades are actually too reliable and safe for the user in SR. Grenades don't always go even vaguely where you intend when you use them under stress. I had an experience once where my thrown hand-grenade simulator hit an unseen tree-branch that resulted in the simulator bouncing back and going off a few feet in front of me. It wasn't fun. If that was a real grenade I'd have been dead.
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Crowley
post Nov 11 2006, 07:49 AM
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Around my table, we allow everyone to dodge as freely as any other attack (which is to say, unless specfically restrained, they get Reaction as normal, and if they want to take the action they can full dodge). Every hit means you leap 1 meter in the direction of your choice. I was under the impression that this wasn't a house rule, but eh. Whatever. It works fairly well.
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Tarantula
post Nov 11 2006, 08:06 AM
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Whats worse than grenades, is an adept with the power throw and missile mastery powers. Throw in some improved ability (throwing) and you get him to the point where the adept will do more damage by hitting you in the face with the grenade than by the actual explosion of it.

Or, just give him some throwing knives/stars and let him kill silently just as powerfully as a grenade.
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Blade
post Nov 11 2006, 10:26 AM
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As I use to say : got a problem ? get a grenade.
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ixombie
post Nov 11 2006, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE
If you allow people to dodge grenades, will you allow them to dodge a 4kg C-15 satchel charge that drops at their feet?



SR4 defense rules are about giving people a fair chance of survival. I don't care whether anyone has a fair chance of survival against grenades in the real world - the Shadowrun rules are about making combat fun and balanced. That is why there aren't any weapons that ignore defense rolls. It has nothing to do with realism, and everything to do with making a good game. If you think a game isn't good unless it's realistic, why are you playing Shadowrun?
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Triggerz
post Nov 11 2006, 04:36 PM
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Hmmm... Aren't grenades a little loud and messy?

Anyways, I like the "1 meter move per hit" rule. I think I'll use it.
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kzt
post Nov 11 2006, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE (ixombie)
That is why there aren't any weapons that ignore defense rolls.

So I assume you have hence removed from your game all the manspells? And the area affect elemental combat spells? And explosions? And neuro-stun and the other chemicals? Do the players get a dodge roll to avoid hitting the ground when throw off a tall building?

Sorry, lots of SR weapons uses mechanics where you can't dodge the attack - you just mitigate the damage, and others where you are really statistically unlikely to ever get the more successes that is required to avoid the attack.
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Blade
post Nov 11 2006, 09:02 PM
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QUOTE (Triggerz)
Hmmm... Aren't grenades a little loud and messy?

Gas grenades : for all your stealthy needs. (among many other useful features)
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ShadowDragon
post Nov 12 2006, 01:05 AM
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QUOTE (Blade)
QUOTE (Triggerz @ Nov 11 2006, 05:36 PM)
Hmmm... Aren't grenades a little loud and messy?

Gas grenades : for all your stealthy needs. (among many other useful features)

Gas grenades have actually been a little underwelming in my experience. Low light sees through standard and thermal gas with only a minor penalty, and poison gas requires contact for a whole turn or more before any damage is resisted. Smoke is nearly useless and poison gas is useful more for flushing guys out of a room than knocking people out.
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Jaid
post Nov 12 2006, 02:01 AM
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QUOTE (ShadowDragon)
QUOTE (Blade @ Nov 11 2006, 04:02 PM)
QUOTE (Triggerz @ Nov 11 2006, 05:36 PM)
Hmmm... Aren't grenades a little loud and messy?

Gas grenades : for all your stealthy needs. (among many other useful features)

Gas grenades have actually been a little underwelming in my experience. Low light sees through standard and thermal gas with only a minor penalty, and poison gas requires contact for a whole turn or more before any damage is resisted. Smoke is nearly useless and poison gas is useful more for flushing guys out of a room than knocking people out.

not quite. any contact is enough to subject the person to the effects of the gas.

you are, however, quite correct about the amount of time before the effect of the gas kicks in.
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Crowley
post Nov 12 2006, 04:09 AM
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QUOTE (Triggerz @ Nov 11 2006, 11:36 AM)
Anyways, I like the "1 meter move per hit" rule. I think I'll use it.

It works well in play.* An additional rule, added just this past session, is that the leaping comes out of your movement for the turn (so you can't travel around the world with good soak and enough grenades!). Which makes running an extra good choice if bombarded, since it's +2 to dodge rolls and extra movement.

*For example, it led to the infiltrator leaping out of a 10m high ventilation duct to avoid grenade-delivered poison gas, launching her grapple gun into the ceiling as she fell, and swinging a wide arc to take a cut with her monofilament whip at the security forces! Good times.
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ShadowDragon
post Nov 12 2006, 05:42 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid)
not quite. any contact is enough to subject the person to the effects of the gas.

you are, however, quite correct about the amount of time before the effect of the gas kicks in.

Hah you're right. I just rechecked the book and I missread the rule for toxin speed. That should make one of players happy.
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ixombie
post Nov 12 2006, 04:01 PM
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QUOTE (kzt @ Nov 11 2006, 12:22 PM)
QUOTE (ixombie @ Nov 11 2006, 11:35 AM)
That is why there aren't any weapons that ignore defense rolls.

So I assume you have hence removed from your game all the manspells? And the area affect elemental combat spells? And explosions? And neuro-stun and the other chemicals? Do the players get a dodge roll to avoid hitting the ground when throw off a tall building?

Sorry, lots of SR weapons uses mechanics where you can't dodge the attack - you just mitigate the damage, and others where you are really statistically unlikely to ever get the more successes that is required to avoid the attack.

It's actually easier to defend against magic than it is against physical attacks, provided you have a mage with you. A mage with counterspelling automatically gets his full pool against spells targetting him and those he's defending, without needing to spend a complex like for full defense.

Yes, if you lack a mage you're screwed against magic. That's intentionally built into the system. It's also intentionally built into the system that grenades are not undodgeable insta-kill weapons.

The real dynamic of SR4 is surprise. If someone surprises you, you get no defense roll. Even a pistol becomes a one-shot kill weapon against a surprised target. But suppose someone pulls back and lobs a grenade. The grenade sails through the air towards you, and you watch its descent to your right foot, where it explodes. That's what happens when you roll 0 hits on your defense roll. The defense roll represents "Oh crap, grenade!" where you jump behind cover or just run your ass off. Or, of course, where you stare with an open mouth as the grenade flies towards you, which represents totally botching your defense.

The time when it just lands near you and explodes before you can do anything is when you're surprised. I find that a lot of people are overlooking surprise when they look at the defense system. They think, "Hey, you can't dodge x, you should get no defense," but that of course makes the surprise rules meaningless in some cases. If you can't dodge a grenade, it is irrelevant whether a grenade user surprises you or not. They get insta-surprise. Yeah, that's totally fair, especially considering that you get a defense roll versus bullets which move faster than your eye can see. You get to dive for cover when you're being shot at, as long as you're aware you're being attacked, but when you see someone lob a grenade which moves at the speed of a baseball, it's suddenly impossible to get out of the way.

The problems that people have with dodging of explosives are problems with the defense system as a whole. If the defense system is too unrealistic for you, go ahead and get rid of it. Have fun playing your own game, which is no longer Shadowrun 4th.
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Big D
post Nov 13 2006, 06:52 PM
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So why lob a grenade?

That's what GLs with airburst are for. :)
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Jaid
post Nov 14 2006, 04:08 AM
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QUOTE (Big D)
So why lob a grenade?

That's what GLs with airburst are for. :)

because GLs with airburst don't explode, silly. duh :P

(not to mention the cost!)
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