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OneTrikPony
post Nov 11 2006, 08:18 AM
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My suspension of disbelief got all stretched out and now it's ruined! :(
I just got google earth so of course the first thing I did was go to Seattle and see what things would look like acording to shadowrun cannon. Things look dumb.

Please open the linkhere, Renraku Ark 3d

I'm going to run the Renraku Shutdown soon and GE has this cool 3D building feature if you turn it on you get to see the buildings and also the terrain in 3d. You can also draw your own vector paths and shapes with some limited 3d right in the browser So I looked in the book and got the stats for the Arc.

I got the footprint from the map in the old Seattle Source book and the stats for hight 969 meters, from the same book. I've tried this a couple of different ways now and I always come up with the same thing, A monsterous building that you can see from space.

I think the ark is cool and "300 floors" is an interesting Idea but seriously I don't think the earth's crust would take the mass of a building this big.

The pic I uploaded is big and it's a .tiff I'll make a lower resolution jpeg and a couple of different views tomorrow.

What do you think?
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MYST1C
post Nov 11 2006, 10:00 AM
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Nice, but you got the shape wrong.
The SCIRE is not block-shaped but instead looks like a pyramid with the tip cut off - which drastically reduces volume and weight compared to block shape.
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mfb
post Nov 11 2006, 11:44 AM
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keep in mind that it's not just 300 stories plopped on the street. as i recall, it extends about 300 stories down into the earth, too. as for the earth's crust not being able to handle the weight, who knows. i'm no architectologist, but it seems to me that with 300 stories' worth of basementage, you could do a whole lot of weight distribution.
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Fortune
post Nov 11 2006, 11:58 AM
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QUOTE (mfb @ Nov 11 2006, 10:44 PM)
as i recall, it extends about 300 stories down into the earth, too.

I think it's closer to 20 or 30, but your point is still valid. :)
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Dog
post Nov 11 2006, 02:22 PM
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Seems to me that if a person is willing to accept troll physiology, move-by wire systems etc. a really big building would be a piece of cake. If I needed to, I would justify it with some bs babble about "carbon-torus construction," "breakthroughs in foamed aluminum," "real-time mass-adjusters" and so on until everyone's eyes glazed over, then shrug and say "It's the future, they've developed technology that we haven't thought of." :|

There's a couple of engineers who post on here sometimes. I hope one of them weighs in.

By the way, I did a similar sort of thing, but the old-fashioned pen and pencil way, and I used my home town to put things in perspective for my friends. Among other things, we figured that in rush hour, it would take over 45 minutes to drive past the Arc, and on a clear day, you could see it from the next city....
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Herald of Verjig...
post Nov 11 2006, 02:31 PM
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It's an arcology, the whole premise is that a city can be built inside a single enclosed space with no need for outside resources for any population up to some maximum occupancy.

If you don't like that, don't look up the Tokyo pyramid either.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 11 2006, 05:03 PM
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QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Nov 11 2006, 03:18 AM)
My suspension of disbelief got all stretched out and now it's ruined! :(
I just got google earth so of course the first thing I did was go to Seattle and see what things would look like acording to shadowrun cannon. Things look dumb.

FYI, the Renraku Arcology is much, much, much wider than is typical for a building that tall (not that we have buildings that tall, but the ratio is unusually small). Your suspension of belief got all bent out of shape for nothing.

~J
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Jrayjoker
post Nov 11 2006, 05:29 PM
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How does the crust of the Earth support a mountain? I think the Arc is safe. And yes I know the mountain is still part of the crust. The crust is really thick, the load gets distributed, and the crust is supported underneath by some very high density stuff.

Yeah, I'm one of the engineers.
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Firestorm
post Nov 11 2006, 06:37 PM
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I think we are already building 500m+ high buildings that have a really smaller footprint.

From my small geological knowledge, the Earth Crust has nothing to do in handling the mass of the Arcology. It's the ground between the rock foundation ( what might be called the crust ) and the bottom of the Arcology that is important. You don't build something that huge on sand. ( usually you try to get some pillars anchored into the rock... but when it's not possible you make it so the building won't become the next Pisa Tower. )
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OneTrikPony
post Nov 11 2006, 07:00 PM
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QUOTE
Nice, but you got the shape wrong.


I know the shape is wrong. The basic program doesn't have functionality for more compelx polygons, you just draw a shape, set the hight, and then extend the sides down to the ground.
QUOTE
keep in mind that it's not just 300 stories plopped on the street...it extends about 300 stories down into the earth, too.

and
QUOTE
I think it's closer to 20 or 30,[basement floors but your point is still valid.
and
QUOTE
How does the crust of the Earth support a mountain?

It does have 30 basement floors. So thats about another 100 meters underground, and I assume it has footing pilons that extend another hundred or so below that. IIRC there have been concerns with the mass of some building designs deforming the local landscape.

Jrayjoker: are you a civil engineer or a real engeneer? :D A geologist will tell you that mountains have roots. When tectonic movement deforms the crust to to create a mountain range the crust is pushed up as well as down, so yest the crust under a mountain is very thick. Mountains do not sit on top of the crust they 'float' on the the earth's mantle. Of course this is not germane to a discussion of the Arc because we're dealing with vastly different scales. I shouldn't have been so dramatic in my first post to talk about the "earths crust", I was literaly up-in-the-night.

QUOTE
FYI, the Renraku Arcology is much, much, much wider than is typical for a building that tall


Yes, which is why my polygon looks so fat instead of tall and skinny like all the other buildings north of it. I used these dementions from the Seattle source book:
QUOTE
Dimentions: 780 meters by 650 meters and 828 meters tall (969 meters tall when completed)


I placed the poly by using the downtown fold out street map in the Seattle source book so I'm pretty confident that I have the footprint right. Again I know that the building isn't shaped like a cube but I don't know how to make a pyramid in GoogleEarth.

I'm going to refine things as well as add the Aztechnology compound today. I think I can make a step pyramid. I'll have more pictures posted by 1200 local and I'll try to figure out how to share this stuff through GoogleEarth
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 11 2006, 07:53 PM
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Yes, your cube looks about right. The key part I think you're forgetting, though, is the equation for pressure: F/A. The gigantic base means it probably doesn't exert as much pressure as modern skyscrapers. Unfortunately, I'm having difficulty finding typical skyscraper bases, otherwise I'd be able to make a better statement here.

~J
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RunnerPaul
post Nov 11 2006, 08:26 PM
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QUOTE (OneTrikPony)
What do you think?
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Demerzel
post Nov 11 2006, 08:35 PM
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Frank Lloyd Wright proposed a mile tall tower called The Illionois. See some info on wiki here.

Maybe an interesting thing to do would be to add a box for the theoretical Illinois next to your theoretical Arcology...
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hyzmarca
post Nov 11 2006, 08:54 PM
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The design is architecturally feasible in general, if you do some handwaving and assume certain things about the structure. The devolpers didn't pull arcologies out of their butts. Some have actually been designed, although none have been built; the limitation is funding rather than physics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_City
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will_rj
post Nov 11 2006, 10:26 PM
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Perhaps you would like to read this thread...

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...opic=9956&st=25


In a discussion quite similar to that, Nindaru posted this link, which displays his view on the ark, compared with canon images

http://rezcook.homeip.net/renraku.html


(Edited parts in italic.)
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OneTrikPony
post Nov 11 2006, 10:27 PM
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Hi, working on an 11 step design, looks alot better than the cube.

I have been aware of the Archology theory, IIRC an Italian came up with the idea sometime befor the turn of the 20th cent.

One of the coolest things is that ships can pull right inside from Eliot bay.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 11 2006, 10:53 PM
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The idea isn't quite that old, but it was an Italian.

~J
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OneTrikPony
post Nov 12 2006, 12:35 AM
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Sorry this took me so long

If you're still interested look that this link:http://home.comcast.net/~hardwire001/Shado...RenrakuArc.html
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Jack Kain
post Nov 12 2006, 01:32 AM
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Anyone recall the huge size of arcolgy's from Sim City 2000?
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Demerzel
post Nov 12 2006, 02:02 AM
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I think that possibly one of the other issues that makes that look way out of scale is that there will be other buildings in the 200+ story range making it look a lot less out of place in the skyline.
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OneTrikPony
post Nov 12 2006, 06:06 AM
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I'm working on puting more shadowrun buildings downtown. If anyone is interested I'll post them in google earth live or put some pics up on my webpage.

Did anyone have any trouble with the web page or opening the pics? That's the first thing I've ever done with itl.

if you use google earth clap your hands; seriously I'd like to know if anyone else uses GE and also if there is anything out there that does the same thing but better.

thanx
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mfb
post Nov 12 2006, 08:12 AM
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i've toyed with GE, mainly trying to find places in Korea where i was stationed. this is a good, interesting use for the program.
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DV8
post Nov 12 2006, 08:45 AM
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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
It's an arcology, the whole premise is that a city can be built inside a single enclosed space with no need for outside resources for any population up to some maximum occupancy.

Echo that. "What did you expect...it's an arcology!" ;)
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OneTrikPony
post Nov 13 2006, 07:08 AM
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Honestly I didn't know what to expect. I've read about the 100 meter building, I've seen the B&W picture in the sourcebook. I kind of dissmissed the stuff about chaneling sunlight through the building to light the neighborhood to the west. I was just surprised at scale of the thing when I did the GE mockup.

I live in a small city, our down town core in SLC is less then a quarter mile square. I come from a small town, have no idea what those people downtown do. The population of the finished Arc is about 100,000 you could, in terms of land space fit our whole down town core inside the Arc. Again I have no concept of what that many people could be doing. That many people working and living in one building for one company makes me feel... Sick is the only word that comes to mind. I just don't understand.

Started working with Google's Sketchup to get some better looking models. I'm working on the Fuchi towers, Mitsuhama complex, Aztechnology compound, and a new and improved Arc with landing pads and stuff.

Check back in this thread over the next several weeks for updates and post if you can think of details and requests that need to be included

Are there any other cannon buildings in the seattle skyline over 350 meters?

Right now I have the talles Fuchi tower at 650 and one of Mitsuhama's at 400
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DV8
post Nov 13 2006, 08:09 AM
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I'm guessing the Aztech pyramid would rank up there.
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