hand to hand combat, blocks, parrys, and dodges oh my... Options

[6thDragon]

I ran into this at a recent gaming session and the rules, as written, seem ridiculous. However, in the writers defense it is probably that way for simplicity. The situation was one of the players decided to create a character with a monowhip. They got into melee combat and I realized how simplistic the rules are. I have many issues with them.

1. I don't see the monowhip being able to parry anything. It would probably cut the weapon in half and the parryer (if that's a word) could get hit by the remainder of the weapon as it becomes a projectile.

2. I don't see anything being able to parry a monowhip either as the monowhip would simply cut the weapon in half.

3. I think shock weapons would be difficult to parry also, especially if the weapon is metal.

4. There are many things I would not want to block unarmed such as blades, shock weapons, monowhips. IRL you would much rather dodge those.

Has anyone else ran into these problems? If so how have you fixed them.

[Konsaki]

When you are blocking unarmed, you arnt actually touching the weapon. You are blocking the attackers arm or feinting enough to throw off his aim.

[Backgammon]

The abstract nature of the melee rules are meant to avoid all these problems. The defender doesn't necessarely block the monowhip with his own weapon. Maybe he dodges the hit, hides behind something, maybe he block the swing arm rather than the weapon, etc. Just don't try to ground the moves as something specific. One round of melee isn't "I punch his face, then he punches mine", just as it isn't "he swings, I block,"

[Jaid]

1) monowire can't exist anyways, or so it has been stated on these forums. just assume that, for whatever reason, it doesn't chop through anything quite that easily. i mean, really... it's gotta be thick enough to withstand some rather violent use, and it's only got a very little ball at the end supplying the force. 8P won't even kill someone, really. besides, you could just smack that little ball thing at the end to deflect it.

2) shock weapons must presumably have some non-active parts. furthermore, i would assume that many weapons are not necessarily made of metal. plasteel is pretty commonly used. who knows, maybe it's a good insulator?

3) if you have issues with seeing certain attacks as parrys, fine. i assure you, lots of martial arts include teaching you how to dodge as well as parry... just call it something else if the name bothers you. always remember: you can flavor your mechanics however you please without affecting balance in the slightest.

[Glyph]

I agree that the rules are very simplistic, and you might consider adopting some kind of house rules if they seem too simplistic for certain circumstances. But there are ways you can justify the situations that you brought up using the current rules:

1. A monowhip parrying would probably consist of swinging the whip around in defensive arcs, while the attacker tried to get past it.

2 - 4. What Konsaki said. Also, the rules do already include grazing hits for things like shock weapons, so they are slightly harder to block. Furthermore, the reach rules approximate the difficulty of blocking weapons bare-handed.

[lorechaser]

And overall, Shadowrun isn't a game about melee combat. Some people are trying to fix that, but it's only a small subsection of the entire combat arena. So unified, simple rules were the choice made....

So short answer: I see the issues, and have thought about them, and ignored them in the interested of keeping the system useful. ;)

[Smed]

Me too. Streamlined gameplay is more important to me than ultra-realism.

[Blade]

If you stricly apply firearms rules, someone with his gun at 2cm of someone else's head might still miss.

Usually, roleplaying and having a GM somewhere around the table help solving those problems. Common sense is quite useful too.

[Ophis]

Problems like this should be taken as Ideas for when the defender glitches.

"Ooops, you manage to avoid the Monowhip, you grin to yourself for a moment and then with a ringing clang half your weapon focus' blade hits the the floor."

[Konsaki]

Could be, but how many times are you actually going to come across someone with a Monowhip? It takes an assload of skill to use and even then, you can easily kill yourself instead of the other guy.

You have to be either really confident in your abilities or really crazy.

[Ophis]

There are a lot of crazies in my version of the Sixth World. Monowhips are the toys of hard asses and stupid gangers.

[Jaid]

[GrinderTheTroll]

[RunnerPaul]

[eidolon]

[hyzmarca]

Making monowire parry-able also makes it reasonable. Rather than a chain of single molecules, make it just cermaic fishing line with a very sharp edge.

[Jack Kain]

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Jack Kain]

A thought just struck me.

A character can attack multiple enemies in melee in a single complex action by spliting his dice pool. Much like a character shooting a gun in each hand.

But I just realized wouldn't the full reach bonus be applied to both attacks? As the reach bonus can be used as a penalty to the enemies rolls or a bonus to yourself.
Thoughts?

[IvanTank]

I was wondering about that myself. At what point does the dice pool get split when attacking multiple enemies, before or after given modifiers (Visibility, Reach, Weapon Focus, Charging, Wounds, Position, etc.). The Reach modifier seems like it would have to be applied seperately, because two enemies may have different Reaches themselves.

My thinking is you take Agiliy + Skill ( + Weapon Focus? ), split those dice among two attacks, and add the modifiers seperately to both attacks. I am not sure if the weapon focus bonus should come before or after the split, meaning do you get the full bonus to both attacks, or do you have to split the bonus.

[Triggerz]

Or just use the same rule as for smartlinks in dual-wielding ranged combat and ignore reach entirely. :grinbig: (Seriously, I can't wait for the advanced melee combat rules with martial arts and such.)

[OneTrikPony]

Waaay back in SR2 I had a troll with a cyberarm shotgun. In one of our first adventures my character was facing a snobby human who wasn't cooperating.

me: I reach accross the table and grab the b*ch by the head.
GM: make an attack roll.
Me: (re roll two sixes) I got 11,
Gm: (throws a handfull of dice) You're palming her head like a mini basket ball.
Me: I ask her one more time where it is.
GM: (throws another handfull of dice) she's just struggleing and screaming into your hand she doesn't answer.
Me: I shoot her in the face with my cybergun. "Kaboom"
Table: Dead silence and surprised looks for a minute then Cheers.
GM: Fine! she's dead you ass.

It was one of my proudest moments; no rolls needed, it wouldn't have fit the scenario that I'd role played. Some times you just have to look at the situation and see if the rules are necessary or if you just need to make a ruleing at the table.

[Fortune]

[IvanTank]

[RunnerPaul]