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> The famous 1986 FBI shootout, Good background material for firearms
Wounded Ronin
post Nov 13 2006, 10:05 PM
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I just found an internet writeup of the famous 1986 FBI shootout in Florida where several agents ended up getting into a firefight with an ex-Ranger and an ex-Marine who were bank robbers. Since we like to discuss the performance and behavior of various firearms on this forum I thought it would be interesting background material to post here.

Exerpt:


QUOTE


While McNeill was firing across the hood, SAs Mireles and Hanlon left their vehicle which had crashed into a concrete wall on the far side of the street, and rushed to aid their fellow agents under heavy fire. Hanlon, his primary weapon lost, retrieved his backup five-shot J-frame from an ankle holster and went to support Dove. Mireles, his Model 870 at port arms, came up behind McNeill just in time to take a .223 round in his left forearm, the shock of which impact toppled the 6'5" agent into the street where he quickly realized that his ruined left arm was all but useless. Platt's round, however, had not reached Mireles' chest where it had been aimed.

After McNeill expended his six rounds of 38 Special 158-grain +P, his right hand grievously wounded, he returned to his Olds sedan to reload as Mireles struggled after him. After only managing to get two fresh rounds into his gore-covered revolver, McNeill arose to reach in the back seat for his shotgun, took a .223 round in his neck, and fell over onto his back, paralyzed and out of the remainder of the firefight. He was intensely aware that he had just looked right into the face of Michael Platt and had the murderous thug smile at him as he squeezed off a fast three rounds at McNeill's head!

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Raygun
post Nov 13 2006, 11:03 PM
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This event was the major impetus behind the FBI's adoption of the 10mm Auto and the subsequent development of the .40 S&W, which is now probably the most popular police handgun cartridge, at least here in the US.
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Inu
post Nov 22 2006, 05:59 AM
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Also see a longer and more forensically detailed version here. It's a review of a book written by a doctor who attempted, ten years after the incident, to re-create it in exacting detail to figure out exactly what happened.
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Paul
post Nov 22 2006, 06:17 AM
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What a confusingly written piece, which is a shame because it is so interesting. I don't know if this was a transcript from a television show, but it sure read like one. But I guess if my only complaint is formatting, then so what right?
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krayola red
post Nov 22 2006, 06:20 AM
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I think the part I'm most surprised about is the fact that they identified the incident as the bloodiest firefight in FBI history. If two casualties and five wounded qualify for that label, then the Bureau has a much better track record than I had previously assumed. Then again, everything I know about law enforcement I learned from the movies.
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Paul
post Nov 22 2006, 06:21 AM
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This was the first thing that came to mind when the link basically said "most analyzed shoot out..."
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Paul
post Nov 22 2006, 06:23 AM
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QUOTE (krayola red)
...then the Bureau has a much better track record than I had previously assumed.

Remember the FBI is only 70 or so years old.
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Ed Simons
post Nov 26 2006, 03:22 AM
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QUOTE (krayola red)
I think the part I'm most surprised about is the fact that they identified the incident as the bloodiest firefight in FBI history. If two casualties and five wounded qualify for that label, then the Bureau has a much better track record than I had previously assumed. Then again, everything I know about law enforcement I learned from the movies.

It's probably considered the bloodiest because all the officers involved were FBI. The Kansas City Massacre resulted in four dead law enforcement officers (plus the prisoner they were transporting) and two wounded out of seven. The four FBI agents had one dead and two wounded. They fared much better than the other officers who all died.
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Snow_Fox
post Dec 4 2006, 02:25 PM
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It reminds me of the case of a bank robbery in LA a few years ago. because of public outcry LAPD only had handguns. The bad guys had body armor and AK-47's. shooting for the body, the LA cop's couldn't stop the guys whowerel itteralyl walking away.

Infamously some police went into a gun shop and bought rifles with their own credit cards. In the end the robbers were brought down by highly accurate pistol fire- a head shot and the other being shot in the ankles to bring him down (anyone ever thing of that as a called shot move?)

I don't remember the body count but it was the worst day for LAPD for casualties, but proudly no civilians were killed. The police, litterally out gunned still put themselves into harm's way to keep people safe.
After that though the LAPD Sgt's were allowed to carry M-16 in their cars, but only rigged for single shot action. By comparrison the NYPD have steyrs and HK's for serious stuff going down.
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Kagetenshi
post Dec 4 2006, 02:53 PM
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QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
The police, litterally out gunned still put themselves into harm's way to keep people safe.

That's anů interesting take on it.

~J
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eidolon
post Dec 4 2006, 02:56 PM
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QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
After that though the LAPD Sgt's were allowed to carry M-16 in their cars, but only rigged for single shot action. By comparrison the NYPD have steyrs and HK's for serious stuff going down.

I take it the Steyrs and HK's are their SWAT weapons though, right? Or do you mean that actually issue them to officers in the way that I'm used to seeing shotguns in squad cars?
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PBTHHHHT
post Dec 4 2006, 03:22 PM
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QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Dec 4 2006, 09:25 AM)
It reminds me of the case of a bank robbery in LA a few years ago. because of public outcry LAPD only had handguns. The bad guys had body armor and AK-47's. shooting for the body, the LA cop's couldn't stop the guys whowerel itteralyl walking away.

Infamously some police went into a gun shop and bought rifles with their own credit cards. In the end the robbers were brought down by highly accurate pistol fire- a head shot and the other being shot in the ankles to bring him down (anyone ever thing of that as a called shot move?)

I don't remember the body count but it was the worst day for LAPD for casualties, but proudly no civilians were killed. The police, litterally out gunned still put themselves into harm's way to keep people safe.
After that though the LAPD Sgt's were allowed to carry M-16 in their cars, but only rigged for single shot action. By comparrison the NYPD have steyrs and HK's for serious stuff going down.

Uhm, Snow Fox, you're thinking of the North Hollywood shootout which was mentioned earlier by Paul. The suspects, one committed suicide, and the other was taken down by Swat members who shot at his unprotected legs. The guy who went off to buy the rifles, no, the gun shop owner was more than obliged to help out the police rather than having them pay via credit card, but he didn't get back in time with the rifles. The LAPD are now issued AR-15's.

NYPD, well, when you say they are issued Steyr's and HK's, what we have to see is what type of rifle it is in particular. HK could also mean the MP-5 (I own one, btw), which in that case can be merely 9 mm rounds which would be the same as pistols.

edit: Yes, they do issue assault rifles to officers like they do for shotguns depending on jurisdictions. The Alexandria police department here in Northern Virginia issues them to their officers, I discussed this briefly with the officer that I was tagging along with in a ride along a few weeks ago.
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Butterblume
post Dec 4 2006, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE (eidolon)
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Dec 4 2006, 08:25 AM)
After that though the LAPD Sgt's were allowed to carry M-16 in their cars, but only rigged for single shot action. By comparrison the NYPD have steyrs and HK's for serious stuff going down.

I take it the Steyrs and HK's are their SWAT weapons though, right? Or do you mean that actually issue them to officers in the way that I'm used to seeing shotguns in squad cars?

I looked into it some times back. It's like you say, they carry the (civilian version of the) assault rifle in their cars. In some american police forces the officers are allowed to get one, but must pay for it themselves.
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eidolon
post Dec 4 2006, 04:23 PM
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Yeah, it makes a lot more sense once someone has reminded you that those companies don't exclusively make submachine guns. :oops:

Hey, I've only had one cup of coffee so far.
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PBTHHHHT
post Dec 4 2006, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE (eidolon @ Dec 4 2006, 11:23 AM)
Yeah, it makes a lot more since once someone has reminded you that those companies don't exclusively make submachine guns. :oops:

Hey, I've only had one cup of coffee so far.

That's why you need to take stims like nodoze. :P

Yeah, HK makes a lot of different products, the nice part is the trigger pack for full auto is interchangeable between their products. So all you need is pay for the 10 grand or so for that part, buy several of the HK rifles, and also corresponding licenses for each one from the ATF, and now you can enjoy full auto on a variety of platforms. As opposed to just getting a full auto on one gun and that's it. This is something a coworker of mine has, he has four HK weapons and it's a blast (pun intended) firing the weapons on full auto.
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Shrike30
post Dec 5 2006, 06:40 PM
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Issuing semiautomatic .223's has become more prevalent in police departments across the country, especially in urban areas. The University of Washington Police (basically, cops whose specific jurisdiction is the UW and the few surrounding blocks, although they're pretty heavily interconnected with the Seattle PD) started carrying AR-15 carbines in their patrol cars recently, with the thinking being that the precision and accuracy of a rifle has a lot of applications in an urban environment, where the short (accurate) range of a handgun or shotgun can pose a lot of dangers to the surrounding area.

Needless to say, a bunch of the college kids got up in arms (no pun intended) about why the cops who patrolled the campus needed "assault rifles," but it died out after a while when they forgot about them.
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