Tir Taingire, Do they give SINs? Options

[Gyro the Greek S...]

I've had a case of a PC wanting to buy a gun..he's a legal resident of the Tir, but not of the UCAS. Would he give some kind of super ID, or what?

[Talia Invierno]

I'd guess each political entity has its own independent version of the SIN. In most cases it would parallel credstick IDs; in a few it might be something different, such as a card (NYC - Manhattan).

The degree to which one political entity would acknowledge the SINs of another for such purposes would depend upon the treaties signed between the two - something SR doesn't explore in any detail - and/or business law as it applies to extraterritoriality. In general, these are far more likely to be mutually acceptable where the entities in question have friendly relations.

In other words, it's your call :D

[Shadow]

You can also assume that it is like moderday, I can't go to France and buy a gun (actually no one in France can buy a gun but that is beside the point) so you could assume only UCAS residents can buy guns in the UCAS. But you could always buy it off the internet like you can today.

[Rain]

There is more than one place in the Tir Tairngire sourcebook where they mention legal citizens having SINs.

[Talia Invierno]

In RL, most people in the world have citizenship and identification numbers from one country or another, associated with a whole slew of rights, privileges, and obligations. It's even usually called much the same thing across countries, differentiated mostly by language.

Too bad they're not usually transferable.

[Lazarus]

Basically a SIN (System Identification Number) takes the place of our modern day Social Security Number. Governments, or corporations, have them in place for a whole bunch different reasons. So to answer your question, no he would not have a SIN from Tir if he were a citizen of the UCAS, unless he had dual citizenship, which most people do if they work for a megacorp inside a First World country (one for the corp and one for the country).

He could have a temporary one issued to him, sort of like a Work or Student VISA.

The thing about buying a firearm is you have to look at Tir's laws, which are pretty damn strict, and see what restrictions that government places on the purchase of firearms. If there aren't any then make them up based on what you would think that government would use. Now then there is the question of about the character being SINless. Remember if he is, then you have a whole new set of problems (fake SINS, creating an electronic "paper" trail, keeping that ID clean, and so forth).

Might be better once you got into Tir just buying it on the black maket, unless you plan to stay in Tir as a lawful citizen... :P

[Bearclaw]

The idea of different countries having different SINs goes against the whole idea of a global market.
The EU already approved a proto-SIN for all of Europe. As the governments have less power and the corps more, that trend will continue. There is one SIN, or the whole idea of the SINless is stupid.

[Kanada Ten]

Different nations and corporation have different SINs to prevent global markets. That's the reason corps issue corp script and so on. SINless are just people that no nation or corp has adopted.

[Bearclaw]

So, there's 200 people from 200 different countries with the same SIN?

[Kanada Ten]

Probably not. Governments and corporations use independent registries to handle the SINs and keep them accessible for all. There may be some variance to the coding (what information is encoded into the number) as well.

[Bearclaw]

So, and see how the mega's like this one, if I leave the UCAS and move to the CAS, I get a new SIN? Nice. A new start. With new credit, and no old debts :D

[Kanada Ten]

Why would that happen? You move; you apply for a new SIN. The CAS sees you debts and outstanding accounts and denies your application. The UCAS has already terminated your SIN. You debts are transferred to a criminal SIN as your "new" legal identity (debt evasion). The Debt Collection Agency now owns you. Congratulations on your new identity, citizen.

If your debt are less than 1,000 :nuyen: then you are now considered SINless as it is simply not worth the work, IMO.

Seriously though. Why wouldn't your debt transfer?

[Shadow]

I think he is talking about the way cc companies currently track you, and that is by your SSN. New SSN and no debt.

[FlakJacket]

Except that even when you apply for a new SSN, it's still linked to your old one. So you might as well go straight for the fake ID anyway. :)

[DV8]

Having not seen the new information about SINs in the Sprawl Survival Guide yet, I always made up something like this.

UCAS-586684476: Normal UCAS SIN
TIRT-475632159: Normal Tir SIN

So you have a four letter code indicating the governing body to issue the SIN. Followed by a number string - you could even change that to an alpha-numeric string, for greater diversity. And I always add a "-C" for criminal SINs issued to people who either are ex-convicts, or SINless who have been arrested and given a SIN for prosecution purposes.

[Pistons]

In my stories and games, I've done it similarly to Deev, although I haven't always used a four-letter code in front. (Tir Tairngire, for example, I just used TT. If it were Tir na nÓg, I'd use TNO. And so on...) To add to the things he'd add, if the ID were deceased, it would look something like this: UCAS-395483066-D

If I were to do dual citizenships, I'd do it like so: TT/TNO-[number]

Corp ID's? YAM-[number], ARES-[number], WXG-[number], etc.

I like to apply the KISS principle to as many things as possible. ;)

[Siege]

[Bearclaw]

So it looks like the SINs would be universal in the last 2 examples. No point in another country issuing yet another SIN for a guy who already exists.

[Pistons]

Sorta, yeah. The character would have to apply for the dual citizenship to begin with, of course. However, if he's changing his citizenship entirely (such as moving from Tir Tairngire to TNO), I'd say he could get a new one if each country normally does theirs a bit differently. It might take a bit longer, but that's bureaucracy for you.

And again, all IMO.

[Bearclaw]

So, here's the real question. If there are different SINs for each country, does that mean you're low life scum in every country you don't have a SIN in? Or if you have a SIN you have a SIN even if it's from another country. Seriously, the only way the whole SINless concept works is if there's one universal SIN.

[Siege]

I would imagine that a SIN issued by the UCAS would have limited recognition in the Tir -- not unlike using a US passport to visit France.

Depending on the gun control laws in place, I probably couldn't buy a handgun in Paris (although I have no idea what those might be) since I'm not a citizen.

As for the SINless, if you don't have one to begin with, odds are the Tir isn't going to regard you as anything but guttertrash. And crossing the border (legally) would be impossible if you don't have at least one valid SIN (or one that stands up to scrutiny).

For your example Bear, I'd imagine the character couldn't buy a gun legally _unless_ the UCAS has no objections to a foreign SIN being used while purchasing a weapon.

Does that make any sense?

-Siege

[Pistons]

Yeah. In cases like Siege just spoke of, think of a SIN as a kind of passport or visa. It'll allow you to visit another country, but you wouldn't get the same privileges (or sometimes the same rights) as the citizenry. Each country probably has differing rights and privileges for citizens of other countries; some might allow someone with a foreign SIN to buy a gun, whereas others might slap you with fines or a 24hr. stay at a police station for even trying to buy. (Another argument for doing one's homework before leaving the country for a run or for vacation.)

[Bearclaw]

So, the next time my runners make a big score, they can fly down to the Carib league, get a SIN for a little cash, and come back as real people?

C'mon guys. The corps are global. The banks are global. They're not going to track multiple sins for the same person. If you're SIN isn't fully valid from one country to another, you can't eat. Because buying a burger is based on the credit attached to that SIN. Remember, there isn't much cash anywhere, and none in the UCAS (officially).

The SIN, the Nuyen and the Mega's are global. Which is why shadowrun is the same game no matter where you place it.

[Siege]

That's the catch, isn't it?

Can you open a bank account in Paris with only a US visa? (honestly, I don't know)

Banks, being multi-national, probably track customers and each customer may have a list of SINs (John Doe's Tir SIN, his UCAS SIN and CAS SIN).

Multi-national corps are, for all practical purposes, are governments in their own right. People working in the Aztech pyramid in Seattle are either Aztech nationals which receive tourist consideration when they move around Seattle -or- UCAS nationals with work permits to sweep floors in the Atzlan pyramid.

Generally speaking, how many people ever acquire more than one SIN? How many people have dual-citizenship? It does exist, certainly but not on a massive scale.

And yes -- if the Carib League will issue SINs to anyone for some cash, your players can pick up "Carib League SINs" and have the equivelent of tourist visas in whatever sprawl they visit.

As the GM, you have to decide on how the local government is going to regard a Carib-SIN. Do they respect it? Do they deport people to the Carib League if they get caught? Which might be a way the Carib League receives revenue. "To be a SIN, you must send in 20 nuyen a month."

Which beats the hell out of being SIN-less, I suppose.

Of course, your players would still have to find some way of getting to the Carib League -- odds are the SINless can't fly out through official channels from the CAS.

-Siege

[Fortune]