 Take Aim and Called Shot |
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 Dec 2 2006, 07:12 PM
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#226
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Manus Celer Dei  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802  |
Note some of the posts immediately before that one, in which the topic of discussion is what is or is not constructive (and thus acceptable) discussion of SR4, SR3, or the comparison thereof. I understand you're relatively new here, so you may want to check mfb's posting history for a better idea of his humor.
I'm not saying your conclusion is wrong. Well, ok, I am, but mostly in that you say he "hates" the rules and therefore doesn't have valid arguments against them—I don't have reason to believe that he doesn't dislike them. Regardless, the statement you quoted is fairly clearly (in context) loaded with highly negative words for humorous, rather than serious, purposes, and pulling it out of context makes that far less clear. ~J |
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Dec 2 2006, 08:36 PM
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#227
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
While the skaters aren't in the rink with one another, they're definitely still in direct competition. If there was no competition involved people would do as well during the meet as they do during practice.
The opposed tests seems to match that perfectly. I'd probably use a base threshold they have to pass, and whoever passes it the best wins. In the case of a tie continue to roll off until someone wins. If it were necessary to the game I'd determine their point scores based on how well they rolled and how many times it took to break the tie. If it were really important to the run I'd figure out a way in advance to convert excess successes to a score between 1 and 10, but most likely I'd just pick a score for the winner and guesstimate everyone else's scores from that. |
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Dec 2 2006, 09:56 PM
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#228
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Whether or not mfb takes issue with the SR4 rules is not the purpose of this thread.
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Dec 3 2006, 12:03 AM
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#229
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 341 Joined: 3-October 05 Member No.: 7,802 |
Unless we're talking about something like fencing in terms of Olympic sport opposed tests don't really count. Direct competition is not direct conflict. Direct conflict is "Person A and person B are trying to either gain the upper hand or B is trying to stop A, where A directly affects B and vice versa".
A skater does not directly affect their opponent while they're skating. Likewise with runners, unless they do something stupid like try to trip them. However I do personally believe SR4 is a perfectly good framework. For an RPG a framework is all you can hope for. As to rules for locating targets, it's simple without inventing rules. If you can hear them for example you can locate them, however at 1km with the sound of the ship interfering and at long distance... plus who says the guy in question is on the open deck? Try making a called shot to bypass armour on a ship to hit a guy inside when you barely have 2 or 3 dice anyway, if that. But again there is no way to locate them. On the other hand a guy with good skills, a night vision scope and a sniper rifle could be expected to try it. You'd just have to add another penalty to hit for the pitch and roll of the ship, even in fairly calm water. |
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Dec 3 2006, 12:15 AM
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#230
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
If you don't think the guy in front of you has a direct affect on your performance, then the "it sucks to go last because there's a lot more pressure" thing, the "it sucks to go first because there's no bar already set" and the guy before you hitting a 9.92 not affecting your game must never actually happen. Of course, if you ever actually watch the Olympics, it happens all the time.
I guess we'll just have to disagree on what is direct conflict or not. but my method uses the rules as written to quickly and easily determine the victor in any competition. I like that. YMMV. |
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Dec 3 2006, 12:19 AM
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#231
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I have to agree with James McMurray. His method quite adequately demonstrated a skating competition.
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Dec 3 2006, 12:29 AM
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#232
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It doesn't actually use the canon rules. Opposed tests are explicitly between two people, not two or more.
~J |
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Dec 3 2006, 12:46 AM
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#233
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
That doesn't mean we should stop trying to find it. Or that we should accept something that is far from it. Take a look at the vast number of house rule threads in these forums, and you'll see a lot of people complaining about some feature of Shadowrun. Heck, this very thread came to full life because I showed how a called shot could be used to take out a Citymaster with a handgun. That's a valid complaint; it's just that instead of discussing possible solutions and fixes, some people (James McMurray especially, but myself included) prefer to bicker over rather or not this means SR4 sucks. For example, my solution is to abandon fixed TN's: for every die you go into the negative, you add +1 to the TN. You also need to allow exploding dice on every test. For some reason, this makes some people's vein's throb, so I try not to offer it too often. cx2: the problem is that with those 2-3 dice, you're likely to make 1 success, and therefore the shot. Granted, the example deliberately ignores a dodge test, but you get the point. A starting character can make the shot, without invoking Edge. And if he does use Edge, the shot becomes even easier. |
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Dec 3 2006, 02:29 AM
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#234
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
So do it as a stream of opposed tests if you have to be technical about it. I for one just realize that the rules weren't designed with olympic style competitions in mind and go with it. That is of course, if it ever actually came up in a game. |
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Dec 3 2006, 03:28 AM
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#235
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
Actually Troll figure skating is a beautiful sport to watch!
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Dec 3 2006, 03:54 AM
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#236
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Maybe, but unless you happen to make a troll that figure skates competitively, and the GM really wants to roll it out, there's no need for the rules to care about the sport. :)
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Dec 3 2006, 03:58 AM
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#237
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Well, we're losing track of the original debate (not very original, given that it appears to have started well over two hundred posts in, but it's when I joined in so as far as I'm concerned it's the original debate ;) ), which is how frequently it makes sense for people with world-class abilities to fail at world-class challenges. I think the answer is a fair bit, you, IIRC, think the answer is not very often, and we're trying to come up with analogous situations from real life that will provide us an answer.
~J |
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Dec 3 2006, 04:20 AM
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#238
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
I can see plenty of need for rules on troll figure skating, or at least rules that can be easily and correctly applied.
Let's say that the team has been hired to protect a professional athlete. One thing they can do is have a team member pose as another athlete. Let's say that in this case, it's speed skating. You'd need to know how far back/ahead the shadowrunner was, when the sniper shoots into the rink. You could GM fiat it, and just tell the player: "You're too far back to help." Or, you could say: "Let's create a house rule. How about this: let's use the sprinting rules, but change the distances like so." Yes, you might have to (shock, horror!) deal with the player doing something your plot didn't expect. But if you roll with the punches, you'll end up with a game that's more fun for everyone. |
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Dec 3 2006, 04:21 AM
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#239
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Strange desire to add that to my sig. :spin: |
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Dec 3 2006, 05:34 AM
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#240
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I agree completely, which is why when asked I gave what my house rule would be if it ever came up.
Same here. But unlike you, I can't resist the urge. :D |
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Dec 3 2006, 05:35 AM
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#241
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Just found this in my notepad. If I've already posted it then just ignore it. :) Called shot rules:
The Abstract Nature of Rules
The rules themselves are written to require GM decisions. If you don't like a game where the GM has the obligation to make choices then obviously you'll have problems with a game designed with that in mind. The way SR4 is written gives you the tools to play the game as you want to play it. The way you seem to want it to be written would require the players to play the game the designers want to play. I like being able to play my own game. YMMV |
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Dec 3 2006, 05:56 AM
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#242
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Then play your own game, but be honest with yourself, and don't call it Shadowrun. You can add power armor to Shadowrun, if you like. Dimensional tears, aliens, and mana points can be shoehorned in. Except when you stand back and take a look, you're "own game" isn't Shadowrun anymore, it's Rifts. You can play Rifts if you like, it's not a terrible game, but it's not Shadowrun. I don't understand how you can play Rifts, and call it Shadowrun. |
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Dec 3 2006, 06:07 AM
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#243
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Target Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 27-November 06 Member No.: 10,045 |
I totally missed the point of your Rifts tangent. Please explain.
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Dec 3 2006, 06:08 AM
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#244
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Uh.... Dude? It's still called Shadowrun. Nice try with the Rifts strawman though. Maybe responding to peoples' actual words would suit you better?
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Dec 3 2006, 06:34 AM
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#245
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
Cain, could you please define Shadowrun for us and what we are allowed to do with it and not. I really need an official ruling on it.
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Dec 3 2006, 06:47 AM
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#246
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 261 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Massachusetts Member No.: 2,115 |
You are not playing Shadowrun if Cthulu kills 1d6 PCs each round.
You are not playing Shadowrun if you run into Elminster in the city of Silverymoon. You are not playing Shadowrun if your character has a "Blood Pool" stat. ... your character is piloting a Marauder IIc. ... your character hails from the Northern Lights Confederacy. ... your character can invent a teleport spell on the fly. ... you're playing a Wookie scoundrel. |
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Dec 3 2006, 06:59 AM
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#247
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 17-October 06 Member No.: 9,636 |
Chandon, Please, Elminster lives in Shadowdale. Alustriel rules Silverymoon. Get it right! :) Cain, Honestly, you're causing my brain cells to commit sepuku. Please just stop. Shadowrun is a system as much as it is a theme. D&D is a system in the same light. To suggest that you can't play Shadowrun without power-armour, else you need to call it RiFTS is like suggesting you cannot playing D&D without Elves else you can't call it D&D, but D&D-NOELVES. Says who? You? Yes, your name may evoke the first children of Adam and Eve, so PERHAPS you are our progenitor and thus we must pay homage to you. But, you'll forgive me this small rebellion if I tell you that I will play Shadowrun as I see fit and still call it Shadowrun. Thank you. |
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Dec 3 2006, 07:04 AM
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#248
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
But he does have access to a Teleport Spell or two. ;) |
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Dec 3 2006, 12:37 PM
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#249
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
First of all, you'd call it d20. No elves necessary. D&D is a proprietary product, which by definition, includes elves. You can house rule them out, but then the game's not the same. Exactly where the line between D&D/notD&D is unclear, but you can tell when you've crossed it. To call it Rifts when things have gone that far isn't a stretch.
You're welcome to do so. But if you're including caped super-heroes flying faster than a speeding bullet, someone's going to point out that you'd be happier playing HERO system than the Shadowrun ruleset. But be honest with yourself, and honest with your players. If someone comes to play Shadowrun, and you've got Supertights as an NPC, you're doing both them and you a disservuce. This is why it's best to be honest about the type of game you're playing, even if you want to call it something it's not. |
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Dec 3 2006, 03:05 PM
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#250
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Target Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 27-November 06 Member No.: 10,045 |
Your Rifts comment was totally off-point. The discussion is basically about how a GM influences a game. You decided to introduce what I guess is an argument about canon SR versus more out-there versions.
So when I go outside the printed rules it's "GM Fiat." Bad, bad, bad. You make "House rules." Good, good, good. What's the difference? Do you think that you are the only GM who takes player input into account when they are running a game? |
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