 Take Aim and Called Shot |
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 Nov 20 2006, 08:49 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 15-November 06 Member No.: 9,866  |
stands for "big black book". no, i don't know why. the book i not black.
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Nov 20 2006, 08:52 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
Legacy term, previous edition corebooks were black. Re: the Longshot rules being broken issue... Personally, it doesn't really affect my group. We don't do shit like Cain's example, or Aemon's. Unless, of course, it was for humor purposes, and wouldn't break the current situation. Furthermore, such a flagrant rules abuse would just end up turning against the player in some way or other, most likely with the GM using the same, broken tactic as an object lesson. Or, if it were me GMing, the Citymaster would veer into a gas station or flammable equivalent, toasting everyone in the area, or maybe the mayor's nephew's house, depending on the neighborhood. You get the idea. However, I understand that these are non-mechanical solutions my group uses, which doesn't address the fundamental, mechanical problem. Nevetheless, I submit to you: Is it really that big of a deal? If you don't like use it as a way to do outrageous shit to break the game, and other people in your group do, you should probably form new groups. |
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Nov 20 2006, 08:52 PM
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#28
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Beat you both :P
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Nov 20 2006, 08:54 PM
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#29
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Been up for a couple of hours. I don't sleep much. :D I's in Sydney, listening to the garbage men. |
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Nov 20 2006, 08:56 PM
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#30
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
SR1 was blue. ;) |
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Nov 20 2006, 08:59 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
Don't try to correct me, Mr. Fancy Pants "I Have a Memory" Guy! |
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Nov 20 2006, 09:13 PM
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#32
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Wow, folks actually let Cain drag them into another Mr. Lucky discussion? There's already been several threads explaining under what circumstances Mr. Lucky is broken (and they all require a GM with no stones and a campaign with fast edge refresh rates).
And, in his (Cain's, not Lucky's) usual fashion he presents a poor case. The example given is not a problem with the called shot rules. A -52 penalty in that situation is certainly a balanced rule. The problem arises from the longshot test being used, not the called shot rules. |
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Nov 20 2006, 09:15 PM
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#33
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Correction: That is awesome (in the Emo sense). I can just imagine that. All the runners line up. "Everyone have a full edge pool?" "YUP!" "Bob, you have a camera on the target?" "Yup!" "Okay, Mystic Mel, fire your gun!" *rolls edge* "Anything Bob?" "Nope." "Okay, try again!" *repeat ad nauseum* "Well, he's still standing. See you guys here next week, after Edge refreshes!" |
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Nov 20 2006, 09:22 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Sad thing is, some people try to play this way.
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Nov 20 2006, 09:46 PM
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#35
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
SR4 was built with the assumption that the GM would use his GM-ness. If you ignore that aspect and adopt an "anything goes" policy then you can't complain about the repercussions. Heck, some folks might even have fun taking it to that extreme. If so, more power to them.
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Nov 20 2006, 09:52 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
I was trying to come up with a proper way to say much the same thing. I prefer the system to be a functional vehicle for a competent group (namely, mine), than a steelshod, straightjacket monstrosity that results in entire sessions of vague rules arguments. However, for those who play with unruly or exploitative players, whatever the reason, I can see why they'd want more canon controls. Furthermore, I don't think that kind of control is available in SR4 as written. |
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Nov 20 2006, 09:55 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 23-August 05 Member No.: 7,590 |
I don't sleep as much as I should, but I'm a night bird... Often go to bed when the sun goes up, which is what I think I'll do now. :P EDIT: I'm in Busan. |
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Nov 20 2006, 09:58 PM
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#38
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I'm much the same ... I just had incentive to 'retire' a little early last night. ;) :D
That's pretty cool. Native or working there? |
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Nov 20 2006, 10:07 PM
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#39
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
for the record, this is far from the only reason one might want a more structured ruleset. some of us enjoy playing within the rules. it's more challenging. |
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Nov 20 2006, 10:11 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
Duly noted. However, isn't that what wargames are for? |
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Nov 20 2006, 10:16 PM
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#41
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
wargames are expensive, less portable, and offer less opportunity for roleplay. not to mention how much fun it is to paint all those minis.
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Nov 20 2006, 10:32 PM
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#42
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
It's possible to play within the rules of a loose game like SR4. If you need lots of structure and rigorous definition though, SR4 is probably the wrong place to look.
By the way, why do you come to this board if you hate SR4 so much? ;) |
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Nov 20 2006, 10:40 PM
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#43
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
That's a Hell of an assumption. Not to mention that it begs the question, "If it relies heavily on GM Fiat, then why the fuck write rules in the first place?" You know, it's been a year and I still have yet to have someone give me a decent answer rather than platitudes and general snark.
Because it can be, and should be, better. |
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Nov 20 2006, 10:47 PM
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#44
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i disagree. people who say this don't understand--or at least enjoy--the type of game i enjoy playing/running. |
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Nov 20 2006, 10:47 PM
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#45
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Edit again: clarifying that this post was a response to SLJames, not mfb. mfb and I crossposted and the one below this is his reply.
Maybe because you don't believe it has a decent answer? You are obviously of the type that doesn't like GMs being GMs (hence calling it fiat instead of something else). That's cool. By all means play that way, but I for one am glad that SR4 was written like it was, and sincerely hope they continue down the path that has given me a game that works great for a mature group. Edit: Forgot to give my answer to the question: because it's fun. I've played and GMed SR4 and never once had to say "no, you can't do that" to some ludicrous request (like a -52 dice penalty longshot test). I'm willing to bet that practically everyone who plays the game has also had their sessions be free of that sort of thing. If you can't have sessions free from that, or for some reason feel that the game must prevent it even if your group wouldn't do it, I can only suggest house rules or another game. /edit By the way, that shadowy flash you saw? That was my joke with mfb going over your head. LOL |
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Nov 20 2006, 10:57 PM
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#46
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
It's quite possible that I don't understand your type of game. If you need a game that prevents -52 dice pool long shots or they'll appear in the sessions and ruin it, SR4 definitely ain't for you. Have you ever thought about converting another system you like to Shadowrun's world? I seriously doubt that the company will be changing their design strategy away from the one that has worked so well for them, so it seems your views on SR4 will only get worse as time goes on. |
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Nov 20 2006, 11:17 PM
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#47
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't want to have to consider the possibility of silly things like -52 dice pool long shots in a game i devote time and energy to. i enjoy coming up with crazy ways to accomplish tasks that still fall within the confines of the ruleset. when you can do stuff like that, it takes the fun out of it. it's not that i want to keep munchkins from doing horrible things with the rules--though that's definitely a plus. it's that i want to play within a strongly-defined set of rules, because doing so allows me the opportunity to solve problems creatively. also, it allows me to solve problems consistently, under a wide array of GMs. that's probably more important to me than it is to others.
as for converting another system, the smartass answer would be "yes, i have--it's called SR3." the real answer is that, yes, i have been working on making a better ruleset. it's taking for-damn-ever, but it's coming. |
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Nov 20 2006, 11:25 PM
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#48
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 17-October 06 Member No.: 9,636 |
I'm not sure I understand. We're talking about the same genre of games here, right? Like, you know, where one person, the GM/Storyteller/DM--whatever, generates a setting, storyline, NPCs, adversaries, scenarios, etc. and runs the players through it, enjoying story, roleplaying, gunslinging and some good ol' sci-fi/fantasy action in the process... A game that in many ways both mimics and decries realism... Where rules are set in place so all participants, both GM and players, have a common terminology, system and basis from which to play? Where ultimately, in order to ensure the game is fun, the authortative figure/GM has the ability, nay, the responsibility to ensure the enjoyment of the game comes first and foremost, above even if it means changing/altering rules as stated? I guess we COULD play where the GM is just another player. But then it seems to me that would just become a PVP match. In which case, I'll just go load up World of Warcraft and go join a Battleground. It sounds as if you have some chip on your shoulder concerning the idea that someone has authority in a game to change the rules as they see fit. Such is the nature of this game genre... |
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Nov 20 2006, 11:33 PM
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#49
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
To be fair, mfb mostly plays in a unique environment (Shadowland ... correct me if I'm wrong mfb), and as such, with its shared world, and equally shared GM-type responsibilities (a necessity for every single member), GM-Fiat takes on a whole new meaning, and arbitrary rulings can and do lead to future problems. A firm rules set as he describes would be ideal for the type of community in which he games.
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Nov 21 2006, 12:36 AM
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#50
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
My group never considered it, and we have lots of fun. :) And in case you think rules light is the only way we play, I've run a Spacemaster game that used Star Fleet Battles as the ship-to-ship combat system. that's as regimented as I've ever seen an RPG be and we had fun with it as well. We also played first edition Mage, whose magic system is as ill defined as I've ever seen. I can understand the difficulty if you're playing in a setting where you have large numbers of players instead of just a tight group of friends. I run a couple D&D arenas and am forced to make lots of house rules because D&D books are not put out with the idea that everything from all of them will be used, so incredibly broken stuff (akin to -52 dice longshot tests) can happen if you're not careful. And since it's an open game with new players coming in all the time just relying on players not to do stupid stuff won't work, because everyone's idea of what stupid means is different. |
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