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[Kagetenshi]

The difference is that GM fiat is unpredictable, and not guaranteed to be the same from one appearance of a situation to the next appearance of the same sort of situation. It destroys the ability for players to predict the outcome of their actions.

House rules, which are also bad but significantly less bad than GM fiat, are different because instead of unpredictable on-the-spot rulings, they are guidelines that are put firmly in place that will be followed every time they apply.

Example: a vehicle crashes into another vehicle. Saying "well, the other vehicle will resist 4S3" is GM fiat. Saying "a vehicle that has been crashed into will suffer damage based on the relative speeds and masses of the vehicles according to this [formula or chart]" is a houserule. The first doesn't let the players know anything about what will happen next time a vehicle is about to crash into another vehicle. The second does.

~J

[eidolon]

Just catching up, so sorry if some of this is repeated.

[Smed]

At some point in any RPG, GM Fiat will be required, as the rules cannot possibly cover every situation. But when GM Fiat starts being required to cover many situations that ARE covered in the rules, that points out flawed rules. All RPGs are going to have rules that break down in some situations. Pointing out that the rules are a bit wonky doesn't neccessarily mean that the people pointing out the flaw hate the game, it may mean that they'd like to see the game improve.

Over time, SR3 is going to fade away in popularity due to the introduction of SR4. I have been playing Shadowrun for years, and am beginning to play SR4, though I still play SR3 too. There are some things I love about the new edition, and some things I loathe about it, but even if I hated the new SR4 rules to the point I only wanted to play SR3, I'd still want to bring up issues with the new rules so that they hopefully would be improved, because as time goes on, finding a group of people interested in playing the older editions is going to be harder.

Those who play ANY edition of Shadowrun should have an interest in seeing SR4 to well, even if they have no plans to switch to the SR4 rules. If the game doesn't do well, the Shadowrun community as a whole will get smaller, and eventually made fade away. So to those who can't stand to see any criticism of SR4, chill out a bit. A critical review of the rules may help to make them better.

[Kagetenshi]

I disagree wholeheartedly, but we're getting close to topic-derailing.

~J

[Kesslan]

Except SR4 isnt really that wonky a system. Is it perfect? No. But no system is (as has been stated before)

I think part of the reason why you dont for example under SR4 see stuff like the old SR3's version of Hardened and Vehicle armor is purely because of the fact that ammo got so advanced it effectively acts like AV rounds. Which under SR3 rules you could infact get for a pistol.

So now you just effectively have regular and AP (Yes I realize there are other types like EX-EX but thats not really the point, it's really just a weaker AP version). Now while making a 'long range snapshot' would likely be abit far fetched IRL. It actualy isnt impossible for some one whos really good with a rifle and has a well calibrated iron sight or scope. Infact it's easier to do with an iron sight. And with very minimal time to aim (Just a few seconds which still falls under a snapshot) you can still be pretty accurate.

Now granted your not bloody likely to MAKE the shot, nor are you going to be able to even see a target beyond a certain range. But snipers from back in the napoleonic and civial war eras made plenty of very long range shots (for the weaponry used), with far poorer weaponry than we have today. And with nothing other than an iron sight to boot. Infact I'm pretty sure if I dug through some of my books on the history of sniping I could even find specific examples of ranges from that era and shots made. Not all of them were extreemly long aiming periods either. Infact, taking a very long time to aim isnt really a good thing in many cases as it's your body supporting the rifle. In cases where it's not then it doenst matter as much of course.

So lets make an actual 'realistic' example of a scenario where you might be sniping at some one in Shadowrun (Something I've done quite abit of actually, and hell I'm going to pull out something I did in SR3 but convert it to SR4 since thats the system were discussing)

Basically here is the setup on the run I was on:
Convoy with various security vehicles, moving along a canyon. We allready knew the route and all that fun stuff, setup an ambush. And I set myself up with my sniper rifle down the far end. Rifle in question was a Ranger arms SM-3 loaded with AV rounds. Now since those dont exsit in SR4 we'll change that to APDS sinc ehtats the closest you get. I was setup, under cover, prone with my rifle supported with a bipod. The angle afforded me full view of the road ahead with practically no blindspot (A second sniper infact was covering the areas I couldnt see and vice versa)

Rifle skill: 6
Improved Rifles Adept Ability: 2
Quickness 6: Converts to Agility 4
Total dice: 6+2+4=12

Now since this is SR4 and I can easily and cheaply use a smartlink with an Adept, I'm damn well going to do so. So lets add another +2 dice from the smartlink since we want to go for 'extreme' examples. Also for this we'll ignore the range issue since vision magnification is also in use, and the range to the target is well within 'long range' of the rifle itself.

Total dice for test: 14

The target: Truck driver, behind armored glass, wearing body armor.
Target has:
Good Cover: -4 dice
Attacker Firing From Cover: -1
Attacker In moving Vehicle modifier (We'll add this because the target is instead the one in the moving vehicle): -3
Total Penalty: -7
Dice Left for Test: 7

Now using the roller at: http://www.imasy.or.jp/~miyamoto/rpg/javas...t/sr4Tools.html
I've Rolled the test 10 times:
Test 1: 3 hits
Test 2: 3 hits
Test 3: 5 hits
Test 4: 3 hits
Test 5: 3 hits
Test 6: 2 hits
Test 7: 1 hit
Test 8: 1 hit
Test 9: 4 hits
Test 10: 2 hits

So in every case I hit him. This without taking an aiming action. However this si with all the necessary gear. Being 'zoomed in' allready etc. Now lets switch it around abit. Make it at long range, without magnification, or a smartlink
Dice Pool: 14 - 2= 12

The target: Truck driver, behind armored glass, wearing body armor.
Target has:
Good Cover: -4 dice
Attacker Firing From Cover: -1
Attacker In moving Vehicle modifier (We'll add this because the target is instead the one in the moving vehicle): -3
Long Range: -2
Total Penalty: -9
Dice Left for Test: 3

Rolls to Hit:
Test 1: 0
Test 2: 0
Test 3: 1
Test 4: 0
Test 5: 2
Test 6: 1
Test 7: 0
Test 8: 2
Test 9: 0
Test 10: 2

So pretty much a 50/50 chance of hitting him without taking an action to aim. This also isnt taking in any other possible mofiiers such as glare from the sun, lighting levels etc. The round in question still also has to not only punch through the armored glas, but then the man afterwards. Realistically it's not an impossible shot. Now is that 50/50 chance better than what you'd get IRL? Hard to erally say, I'd say it's abit on the side of unrealism but keep in mind the shooter was allready setup well ahead of time and the 'snap shot' in question isnt a true snapshot when you think about circumstances, since it only required minor adjustment of the rifle at the most. And that, I can assure you from RL experience is quite possible to do iron sight. Its a great deal harder to do with a scope actually, but then in SR4 you have a smartlink and no need for a scope, the smartlink also convientnly places a crosshair right in your view.

Considering this is an RPG with dragons, magic, nonhuman races, spirits, mutants, cyberware, bioware and all sorts of other things that dont exist in this world. I hardly feel that that's overly streatching the realm of 'realism' for the setting. So what exactly is wrong with the rules surrounding SR4s range combat?

Keep in mind, my character is human, a stat of 4 is for some one 'trained'. A skill of 6 means he's just shy of world class. Add in his 2 dice from the improved combat adept ability and he's actually above world class. He's better than bloody james bond. If he were the total top of the line sniper in the world he'd have:
Longarms: 7
Augmented Agility: 9 (Or 10 for an elf)
Total dice: 16 (17) not counting combat ability powers.
At that level he's not just the best he's bloody well beyond superhuman. And easily earns the 'Legend' status the 7 in a skill gives you.

[Kagetenshi]

[Kesslan]

I got lazy and didnt double check my spelling. A runner team has been dispatched to.. deal with you for pointing out my errors! ;)

[Cain]

Okay, since people have taken exception with Mr. Lucky and the Citymaster, I'm going to modify mfb's example, and show you the flaws on a smaller scale.

The ship, sailing out to sea, is almost a mile away (1500m). His target is wandering around on deck, calling over a commlink and gloating, so the decker has triangulated his location based on signal strength. The target also has full heavy armor on, which has reduced his Reaction pool to nothing. The team has a Ranger SM-4 loaded with EX-EX, but no one left who has the longarms skill.

Mr. Lucky grabs the sniper rifle, which he's never used before (-1), tosses open the van door as it's moving, and fires a snaphot (-3). This is at extreme range (-6) and the target has good cover (-4). He's Seriously Wounded (-3), and is firing from cover himself (-1). And, since this is Seattle we're talking about, it's raining (-4). Now, he calls a shot to bypass armor (-12, assuming no shield). Total modifiers: -34. Since Mr. Lucky isn't going to have any dice pool left, he spends a point of Edge. Now he's got 8 dice to work with, which averages to 2.66 successes, rounded up to 3. Total damage code: 13P. Assuming the target has a Body of 3, that amounts to 1 success: not nearly enough. He dies on the spot.

Now, this is the exact same thing as the Citymaster example, just on a less-exaggerated scale.

[Aemon]

[Kagetenshi]

[Konsaki]

You mean the old dungeon crawls were you cleared a room and moved to the next until you got the the boss and kicked his ass. basically anyone outside your team or town was the enemy, especially if they were in a cave or castle.

[James McMurray]

[Kesslan]

[Kagetenshi]

[Aemon]

[Kagetenshi]

Would your power armor have no stats?

~J

[James McMurray]

[Aemon]

[Kagetenshi]

[cx2]

Be reasonable everyone for crying out loud.

You want to make the rules tighter than a tart's skirt go right ahead, you're not doing anything wrong.

You want to play it loose and fast go right ahead, you're not doing anything wrong.

It's all a matter of style.

As to what does and doesn't constitute SR, let's take some examples.

Some people play Battletech without involving the clans because they feel they're overpowered. There are more than enough conflicts not involving the clans to account for this, thus you are still playing Battletech.
You could play any number of games and play down a certain faction or race and stillb e playing taht game. Maybe you play SR, but certain corps or other groups like Humanis just don't happen to crop up. It's still SR.

So list of house rules or not, it's somehting for every GM and every player to decide. Either way the unreasonable snap shot or banana up the exhaustshould not even be rolled for, it's just different groups would come to that conclusion in different ways.

And let's remember the realism of certain things, most especially firearms, depends on the group. Many players won't have touched a real firearm ever, myself included because I'm in Britain. Remember that many, many countries do not allow legal firearms.

If you have a group made up of computer specialists you'll find the matrix will have some quirks, if you're playing with a lot of firearms enthusiasts or ex military people similarly with firearms, and so on. No two groups are the same. This isn't particularly avoidable, especially in a game with a setting so closely linked to reality.

Yes, linked so closely to reality. I don't compare SR to reality a huge amount because that would be silly, but SR includes firearms and computers etc. THese are things we can reasonably expect people to have RL knowledge and experience of, at least in a noticeable percentage of the player base. On the other hand I would not expect many people to have RL knowledge of "magic missiles".

[James McMurray]

[mfb]

[Garrowolf]

Okay I think I can clear this up. On pg 54 it says:

[Kagetenshi]

Thank you, you did clear it up. That paragraph right there covers a substantial part of what GM fiat is, which is what we're complaining about. That paragraph is, to paraphrase McMurray, "where the bad GM touched me".

~J

[toturi]