 Take Aim and Called Shot |
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 Dec 9 2006, 10:16 AM
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#426
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Canon Companion  Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187  |
Something like that. |
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Dec 9 2006, 10:36 AM
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#427
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Well ok I'll give him that but thats a silly thing in my oppinion to argue about. I mean if the character is dead before the game even starts umm.... why are you even trying to play agian? :D As for them allways being ready to do the job at the exact same time etc. Yes and no. I tend to give em abit of time to begin with to do what they might want to do and they can infact be late to a meet. But I think every GM then in that sense is guilty of 'railroading' his players into still being alive, breathing and able to make a presheduled meet right at the start of any game. Which is why I dont really consider it railroading, but you could argue the sematics of that till the cows come home, go out again, come back, die of old age, their body decomposes and their bones turn to dust. I mean if you really want to play your runner from the day he's born. Umm.. I guess all the more power to you I guess. But I doubt it would really be all that exciting (Albiet perhaps somewhat novel in concept). God I can just see that now. GM: You are boldly pushed from your mothers woom. What do you do? Player: Umm.. waht? GM: You've just been born. Player: uhhh.. ok? What do I see? GM: Your not sure, your still to be fully devloped mind sees alot of bright light, it's kind of painful actually. And you have the feeling that you are being .. you've decided to use the therm 'held' and in a 'direction' you will call 'upside down'. It's really quite new and confusing. Roll willpwoer to avoid the terror of tehse new experiences Player: Umm... I failed. GM: You'd probably be crying alot at this point Player: Yeah.. being a newborn I probably would. RIght i'll scream and cry like a banshee on drugs. GM: oops! Looks like the doctor critically fumbled his roll to pass you over to mommy, you've been dropped on your head. This will lower your maxium intelligence cap by 1. Player: Well that sucks! |
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Dec 9 2006, 10:47 AM
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#428
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
So railroading is ok if every GM does it? Railroading at the start of the game isn't railroading? Well, I prefer consistency myself, so either it is railroading or it is not.
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Dec 9 2006, 11:25 AM
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#429
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Well then let me clarify it as 'railroading a players decisions'. IE your onply option is option A. When there clearly is an option B. If your going to bitch about the settnig of the game why the heck are you even playing in it would then be my question. It seems to me you totally missed the point i was trying to make about it. I mean everything has to start somewhere. |
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Dec 9 2006, 12:12 PM
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#430
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Exactly. So you are railroaded into joining the game (or not, these are your only choices, A or B). So if you are going to bitch about railroading, why are you in the game? Afterall you were railroaded when you join in the first place! And since everyting has to start somewhere, everyone has to be railroaded! They can either choose A) join or B) not join. The players' decision options are already decided for them.
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Dec 9 2006, 12:30 PM
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#431
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
No. Railroading implies there is no option B. Only option A. And as I've pointed out there are plenty of ways to start off a game without forcing everyone to all start off at the same meet at the same time allready as a team etc. Your totally ignoring that. Therefore you do not have to be railroaded. There are other options. And might I point out that since no one can force the player to join the game, they are thus not railroaded and can infact simply find another game to play. Now your just being silly |
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Dec 9 2006, 12:38 PM
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#432
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
There is option A and option B, but there is no option C. That is railroading. Or anytime when the GM limits your options as a player. And in fact, by joining another game you did get railroaded - you took option B, not join. While there are plenty of ways to start off a game, the way the PC starts off the game is still determined by the GM. And I am not going to start calling people silly. |
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Dec 9 2006, 12:45 PM
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#433
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
And as I've pointed out there is some times and can easily be option C) D) E) F) G) etc. While I agree (and I've said this before) that usually an RPG starts off the GM puts up a basic premise to put all the players togeather. But it doesnt have to be done that way and I've certainly GMed games entirely differently. I request a BG from the players. They chose what their character is, they build it from scratch, they chose where tehy start off with, blah blah blah blah blah. Plenty of times I've run things solo with individual players (especially if their new to the game in question) long before they join up as a group. This is purely the players choice. You could for example have a team who's decker is operating out of Hong Kong or something while their operating out of Seattle. Maybe later on theya ll get togeather who knows. You can easily ask the players Ok where do you want the setting to be? ask each person where tehy want to start off etc. And generally before I start a game at least I say ok I'd like to run game X. If it's something like SR next question would be what time period do you folk want to do it in etc? and go from there. It doesnt even take long at all to do, so how exactly is that me railroading the players starting points when they get to pick it themselves? Eventually sure they all get the message hey Mr.J wants to have a meet with you he's offering a job and has been refered to you by contact Y or what ever. |
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Dec 9 2006, 12:51 PM
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#434
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Because they are not the ones deciding if it is ok. You ask for input, but if you allow all your players to decide what they want you to run, then good luck.
Eventually they all get to the point where they receive the job offer and you as the GM decides that. |
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Dec 9 2006, 12:57 PM
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#435
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
yeah but thats not railroading at all they still have a choice of taking it or not. Or if say they dont like the meeting spot they at least have the choice of letting the J know that for reason X the site isnt suitable and would he please mind meeting them at alternate location G. Eventually having to come to a decision about something is not Railroading. A railroading GM never gives you options, or all those options wind up with the exact same effect as if you'd picked the other. To say that there isnt ever any degree of railroading at all wouldnt be accurate of course. But that doesnt make it a horrible negative thing. Which when you speak of some one being railroaded is exactly what is implied. |
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Dec 9 2006, 01:13 PM
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#436
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
No, that is railroading because their choices have become limited. Rallroading is limiting the players options. It doesn't matter if you have a choice as long as the choice was limited. |
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Dec 9 2006, 01:25 PM
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#437
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
By your definition everything then ever done in life itself is you being railroaded then beccause you dont allways get to chose what happens to you in life. You dont get to chose if your born into the world or if you become an abortion, you dont get to chose yoru parents, you dotn get to chose what shcools you intially go to, you dont get to chose if manager X is going to give you that job etc.
To me thats taking the generally accepted term when applied to GMing way too far. But then again I'm starting to get the impression that your a very binary logic type person. |
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Dec 9 2006, 01:35 PM
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#438
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Excatly. How do you decide how far is too far? Who decides how far is too far? In a game who decides such things? |
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Dec 9 2006, 01:37 PM
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#439
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
It usually comes down to a consensus of when everythinks it's no longer fun to play that way.
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Dec 9 2006, 01:39 PM
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#440
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Yes, but there still options. Plenty of them. Railroading implies the exact opposite. That there are not many options. You may well work yourself itno such a position but thats because of your own calls and the luck of the dice in some cases. Personally I think your definition of railroading is far to broad reaching, and contrary to what is implied in it. But well what ever floats your boat. :D
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Dec 9 2006, 01:52 PM
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#441
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The fact that you could die during chargen was the best feature of the original Traveller RPG. :D |
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Dec 9 2006, 02:12 PM
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#442
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Well tehcnially you can 'die' before the game even starts in Shadowrun. It could even be used as an excuse as to why you have cyber/bioware X. You were a young spry lad, but an unnoticed/undagnosed heart problem suddenly lead to your having a yeart attack at the young spry age of 21. Things went so far that you were declared legally dead blah blah blah and were pemanently paralized from the waist down. Your only recorse, should you ever want to walk again was via the miracles of modern science! You wound up needing to have X part of your lower body replaced with cybernetics and thats why you have a pair of cyberlegs. |
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Dec 9 2006, 05:22 PM
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#443
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Curse you for making the joke I was going to make! Hackmaster also lets you die during character creation. Fighters can die in a war during training. I don't know about the other classes, but everyone gets a chance to be horribly maimed, mentally abused to the point they snap inside, and lots of other fun maladies. ----------- Railroading: to me railroading is a scale ranging from complete and total choice where the GM only responds to what the players want to do and complete lack of choice where the GM tells a story and all PCs actions contrary to that story are negated. By that definition then yes, in some ways sitting down at the table is railroading, because you're constantly having to choose between staying alive or shooting yourself in the face. However, that level of railroading is so trivial as to be not worth talking/complaining/preaching about. |
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Dec 9 2006, 06:56 PM
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#444
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
but then it's similar to having the GM tell you. Uh no your character wouldn't do that because of <insert>, he'd do this instead. you really aren't playing YOUR character you are playing someone elses. |
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Dec 9 2006, 09:28 PM
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#445
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
You never have to roll on the tables. They're completely voluntary.
I do it because it helps spur my creativity for figuring out a background I haven't used in a generic fantasy game. There's also an equal chance to get benefits from rolling. |
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Dec 10 2006, 09:29 PM
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#446
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
<Oops. Double Post.>
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Dec 10 2006, 09:29 PM
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#447
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Wushu. Capes. If you read the page on Capes, you'd see why GM fiat is flat-out impossible in it. Otherwise, read for yourself, and you can see why GM fiat is virtually impossible in either system, and completely impossible in Capes.
Umm... next sentence, please?
**Kersplat** :rotfl:
In addition to the ones James mentioned, you could die during character creation in HOL, and I've never had a first clone make it past five minutes in a Paranoia game. Railroading: Generally, it's defined to restricting the players choices to Option A, but sometimes A or B happens as well. So, sitting down at the table isn't railraoding, because the GM isn't limiting your potions yet. I'll agree with James on this one: It's when player choices are negated, in favor of a prescripted story. This also branches off into the GMPC phenomenon. |
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Dec 10 2006, 10:29 PM
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#448
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Capes looks interesting, but not my style. Unless you somehow play the villans and yet remain unknowledgeable of their plans and powers I prefer to have a GM so I can be surprised (or do the surprising if I'm the one behind the screen).
Wushu I've heard people villify and exalt. But reading the quick start rules shows me that every single action taken is multiple opportunities for GM Fiat, since every single detail is vetoable by the GM. Heck, it even introduces Player Fiat, by letting other players veto your details. And of course, before the game begins you're forced into a huge GM Fiat of deciding what the dice pool limit will be. Likewise every attempted coup de grace requires GM Fiat to allow or disallow. Are you really holding up a game that seemingly requires constant GM Fiat to work as a game that where GM Fiat is virtually impossible? |
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Dec 11 2006, 06:41 AM
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#449
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
<damn it, double-post again. Any admins know what a "Mail Error" means?>
This post has been edited by Cain: Dec 11 2006, 06:44 AM |
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Dec 11 2006, 06:43 AM
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#450
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Capes doesn't have to be your style, to be a game with both broad rules and no opportunity for GM fiat whatsoever. Therefore, it disproves your assertion. (Incidentally, since you share villian control, the surprise comes from the actions the character takes when it's not your turn, and not from a sheet of numbers.) At any event, one example is all that is required to disprove your position. You don't have to like the facts to be wrong.
Wushu, as you pointed out, has the Veto rules. Which means, the GM doesn't have any more or less fiat power than the players do, because the GM can be vetoed by the players. It's impossible for a GM to railroad players via Veto, because then he'll just find his own stuff getting vetoed. Player communication before the game is essential. Dice caps aren't even a limit, since the Held Dice mechanic can exceed that very quickly; you'll unfortunately need to buy a full copy of the rules to get the details on that rule, I'm afraid. The coup de grace rules are just an extention of the Veto rules. Basically, the game doesn't depend on GM fiat at all; it depends on *everyone* having shared narrative ability. In short, everyone and no one has final say. The only thing the GM does above and beyond other players is basically to keep track of the Chi/Threat rating of NPC's. He doesn't even need to decide who they are; I've seen players depict "ninjas out of the woodwork" as one of their own details. I've also seen a Capes/Wushu fusion floating around: Wushu without a GM is not only workable, but fun to boot. |
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