 Take Aim and Called Shot |
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 Nov 21 2006, 01:00 AM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659  |
Some games are not written to be read by lawyers looking for wording loopholes, etc. Look at what they were trying to accomplish and judge accordingly.
Obviously with longshots they wanted to give lucky players and advantage when they didn't have the skill. It doesn't make sense that they wanted spending edge to accomplish the impossible. |
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Nov 21 2006, 01:06 AM
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#52
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Of curse it does. In SR3 everything was possible period, if you could meet the TN. There were no dice pool modifiers, so you could never be reduced to zero dice. SR3 even had a rule that allowed you to spend karma pool (the equivilant of edge) to reduce the TN to a more reasonable number. The longshot rules were meant to replicate this fact using a fixed TN system. |
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Nov 21 2006, 01:22 AM
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#53
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it's partly that. but it's also in large part about how i play. even under a single GM, the way things work can change from session to session, unless the GM a) has a perfect memory, or b) writes everything down. i don't think it's fair to ask either of those of a GM. |
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Nov 21 2006, 01:33 AM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
You can argue it all day long, but when I'm DMing or playing with adults we expect certain things. If you want to play in a game where you can fire .22's into a muffler to do a called shot to the head of a guy driving the Citymaster feel free.
Personally I think that's stupid. |
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Nov 21 2006, 01:34 AM
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#55
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
and you should tell us about your feelings. they're quite relevant.
anyway. the point i wanted to make, i made in my original post. |
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Nov 21 2006, 01:36 AM
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#56
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Another option is to just don't force him to make the decisions of whether a -26 dice pool can be long shotted, then two weeks later try -16, and another week go for the -29. It's possible for gamers to police themselves without the GM ever having to step in. Alternatively, write a house rule down, then everyone knows exactly how things work.
For instance, I think we can all agree that the longshot test rules were not intended to let someone shoot blindliy up in the air and hitting a guy 16 blocks away they can only see through a blurry camera whose location they don't know. However, somewhere between "possible" and "damn near impossible" lies "believable." For every group that believable level is going to be different. Leaving the longshot rules open allows each group to decide on their own personal level of believability. Sure, if you take the game as written and use it as a bible you're gonna have problems without self-policing. It's not a design flaw, it's a design choice. |
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Nov 21 2006, 01:59 AM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304 |
Personally, I expect GMs to write down things, especially their house rules.
I know that I do, and have that list available to all the players. It get's revised as needed. Currently, it only has one of the tweak rules on it. Other games, the list has been quite long. |
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Nov 21 2006, 03:42 AM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 261 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Massachusetts Member No.: 2,115 |
That's really important. It does two things - First, it lets everyone know what the rules are so they can declare valid actions. Second, it shows the GM how much they've really changed so they aren't under any false impressions that they don't have any house rules. |
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Nov 21 2006, 05:22 AM
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#59
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Target Group: Members Posts: 69 Joined: 3-October 06 Member No.: 9,529 |
I'd say it's more than an assumption. Looked at the rules for fire damage? I don't think I've ever seen a less concrete rule in a RPG. To paraphrase: some objects (GM discretion) catch fire and continue to burn (until the GM decides they don't) with secondary effects (determined by the GM). |
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Nov 21 2006, 06:08 AM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
I don't have any house rules |
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Nov 21 2006, 06:28 AM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
Your armor should count as a penalty but not based on it's value but it's coverage. If you are wearing armor and are behind cover then the highest cover penalty is what applies.
The movement penalties during taking aim should be a high threshold on the roll. If the penalties go negative then it subtracts the edge as well. You have to have at least one dice left to make a roll. |
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Nov 21 2006, 07:18 AM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
??? edited for logical order and removed "should" statements. |
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Nov 21 2006, 07:43 AM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
it was a joke.
If you look at my sig I have a web page full of house rules. Check it out! |
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Nov 21 2006, 09:00 AM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 23-August 05 Member No.: 7,590 |
@Fortune: hehe Some incentives are just too convincing to argue. :grinbig: I'm working there as an English teacher, so I'm mostly working afternoons and evenings (except for that one class on Friday morning :S ). "Home" is Canada. |
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Nov 21 2006, 09:15 AM
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#65
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
'Home' was Canada (Hamilton) for me as well ... up until a little over 9 years ago. :D |
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Nov 21 2006, 09:19 AM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 23-August 05 Member No.: 7,590 |
I totally agree with you there. I, too, enjoy well-defined and consistent rulesets. I enjoy the SR3 martial arts rules not because they are super realistic, but because they provide a wide array of well-defined options that your character can learn and use in combat, e.g. "I'm surrounded by four punks with knives... Do I use Iron Monkey or Golden Mask?" Your choice of maneuver has the same type of impact on the game as your choice of gun. If you shoot someone with a Predator, the damage code, range, and so on, won't be the same as if you shoot the person using a shotgun, making your weapon choice a strategic question that has a real (and well-defined) impact on the game. Martial arts in SR3 brought a similar type of strategic thinking to melee combat which I truly enjoy. I don't really need rules that cover everything, but I appreciate when the core elements of the game are well fleshed-out. If too much depends on the GM, then you end up re-learning the game entirely every time you join a new group. I do understand that other people enjoy other types of rulesets. I'm just saying that mfb's preferences are probably not all that uncommon. |
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Nov 21 2006, 03:30 PM
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#67
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
I, too, would like some consistency. Especially since the converse is, "A foolish inconsistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" (Emerson).
SR4 is full of foolish inconsistencies. |
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Nov 21 2006, 04:41 PM
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#68
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
So does that mean your mind is too little to handle them? ;)
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Nov 21 2006, 10:09 PM
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#69
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
"Force the players to make it up" is not a design choice, it's laziness on the part of the game designers. A consistent, solid ruleset prevents rules-lawyers and munchkins from pulling a fast one on you as a GM. It makes games run smoother for both players and GM alike.
"The rules are fine because the GM has a great big stick" is a fallacy. The rules need to be fine because of some inherent property of the rules. It's a bit like saying enriched uranium is safe; just because it can be used properly doesn't mean you want everyone and anyone to have it. As for called-shot silliness, let me point you to my sig. :D |
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Nov 22 2006, 12:10 AM
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#70
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Re: rules tightness: I disagree. But, you already knew that and don't care any more than I care about your opinion. :)
Re: longshot sig: obviously that shot is allowed, because the GM (author) determined that it would be how the players won. It's also not the same as your example, because in this instance a hole does exist, in a fully buttoned up CityMaster that hole doesn't exist. I try not to railroad like George Lucas did though, so my players will rarely find themselves in a situation where they'll need to try and take down the Death Star with a single shot (unless through some massive train of screwups they've put themselves there). And if they do, they'll probably try to convince me to create a GMPC because none of their characters is Luke Skywalker. And of course, if a Death Star showed up in my SR game (this is an SR board, right?) then things are well past the point of canon and whatever happens is my own damn fault. And I'll reiterate my response when he first said it: I'm glad he doesn't want to play in my games. In fact, I'd go out of my way to prevent it, as weve never gotten along. Trying to tell me that a guy I don't like doesn't like me is a wee bit pointless. And again, this all falls on the deaf ears of "I'm never wrong" Cain. I was wondering how long it would take you to live down being bluntly proven wrong, and I can certainly understand why you try and restart the conversations rather than bumping the thread with your shame to the top. LOL! |
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Nov 22 2006, 01:03 AM
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#71
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I just had a fifteen minute back and forth with my 2 year old daughter that reminded me of you two (SLJames and Cain). I had taken the peel off her banana. She was insistent that the peel be left on the banana, and just could not understand that it was already off and couldn't be replaced.
Guys, this banana has already been peeled. |
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Nov 22 2006, 01:19 AM
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#72
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Debate the topic please, even if it is a dead horse. It's apparently at least an interesting dead horse. Please refrain from personal attacks.
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Nov 22 2006, 03:43 AM
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#73
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
In a fully buttoned up citymaster, there are still doors, windows, firing ports, exhaust pipes, and the like. The Death Star example was an exhaust port. At any event, you're still missing the forest for the trees. The called shot rules are broken, as are the Longshot test rules. You're focusing too much on the illustrations, and not arguing the substance: namely, how the rules themselves prevent abuse, as part of good and complete design. |
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Nov 22 2006, 04:04 AM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Meh. Shadowrun has never been totally balanced. Also, guns (and various other projectiles) kill people. End of story. If you don't like that, use fucking cover or don't be seen long enough to be shot at. And if it seems retarded then don't do it, rules or no rules. Otherwise the GM has my advice to laydown this universal counterpoint: "Rocks fall, you all die."
In the end, though, combat is deadly. Even more so with all the high-tech accessories that come with the firearms and bows in 2070. Armor helps, but it only covers so much, and it should only be for that "OH SHIT!!" moment when you get caught in that unfortunate wrong turn. Unless its hardened milispec and in that case what the fuck are you doing in that, Mr Walking Target? Its Shadowrun, not Battletech. :grinbig: |
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Nov 22 2006, 04:05 AM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
I've yet to meet a game system that I haven't been able to abuse.
A game system should be able to adequately define how the system works. It doesn't have to be unbreakable. I personallyl prefer game systems built with some bend in them. It's hard to make a system that reflects reality in it's mechanics, but to also expect the system to reflect waht's not possible. A SR Team is in a pitched gunbattle with US special forces in front of the US capital. Fighter bombers are called in as additional backup because a company of Army regulars has been anniahlated by a Shadowrunning team. They drop a stick of 500lb bombs on the Team but Nero the Elven Gunbunny dual weilding pistols quickly shoots each one once and they explode 100m up saving the team. The jets circle around again and shoot missiles at the team. Nero shoots them all down with his pistols again before they get the team. They then quickly leave to meet at the White House with the VP of the United States to be thanked on a job well done and to get 10,000,000ny each and a suitcase nuke that they wanted. Some people like this style of game and some do not. Personally I like the game where the PC gets rapidly beat down by mall cops with stun batons when he's caught hacking into the soda machine... The rules allow for both and I've played in both of those two games and the game is better for allowing both depending on the DM. |
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