 NPCs, problems with making npcs |
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 Nov 21 2006, 05:50 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 18-November 06 From: Montgomery, tx Member No.: 9,898  |
i have been gm for the only a couple of runs. And i have a few problems
1. the players always challenge what i say. this is here is the most annoying not only does it slow down my runs but players often forget what they are doing and start agruing between themselves as we try to figure out the exact rule 2. NPC...i cant seem to make an npc seems important most of the time ether the players kill them or they ignore them. 3. this is the last, combat for us seems to be i attack....roll so dice and boom hey the enemy is dead...which i cant seem to find a way to make it a challenge to my players. so far all them seem to do is cast improved invisibility and hey now no one can see us so now i run around killing everything. so here are my problems. think you guys can help my out here? |
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Nov 21 2006, 05:55 PM
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#2
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Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 18-November 06 From: Montgomery, tx Member No.: 9,898 |
also seems i have named this post wrong....anyone know how to edit post title?
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Nov 21 2006, 06:00 PM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
1 - You are the GM, grow a pair and tell them to follow your calls on rules until after the run. Once the game session is over, they can come back to you with the book passage, one on one, and you can talk it over.
2 - It might just be the way your group rolls right now. As you present no examples of your NPC's, I cant really give you any advice on making them better or more interesting. 3 - Wards drop sustained spells and they are cheap. One wage-mage can counterspell for an entire group of grunts, which lets them use the counterspelling dice on their resist checks or you could just throw out some ultrasound sensors on their guns, which would cancel Imp Invis. Have one of your grunts go suppressive fire with an auto weapon and just watch the blood fly from the PC's. The guards can see the blood after it leaves their body. Grenades, grenades, grenades... Did I mention Grenades? Have your guards stay behind cover alot and just shoot around corners using their gun cams. Have your wage-mage dispel the sustained spell or turn off the focus using astral combat. |
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Nov 21 2006, 06:15 PM
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#4
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Ultrasound
paracritters |
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Nov 21 2006, 06:20 PM
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#5
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
1) What Konsaki said.
2) Make sure that there are NPCs who are the only source of a certain piece of necessary information for the run. After they ruin a run or two by wantonly murdering people they may reconsider. Likewise, have them meet people in situations where killing might be a bad idea: a public restaurant, an office with hidden CCTV, etc. Killing makes enemies, and enemies make you dead. 3) do a search for "mages overpowered" and "invisibility broken" and you'll get tons of responses to questions about dealing with some of the crazy stuff mages can do, including invisibility, which is actually one of the easier things to counter. Always include a way to tack dice penalties into a fight. Cover, lighting, smoke, chemical weapons, etc. can drop those massive dice pools down. For offense I like electrical weapons and chemicals. They're harder to defend against, less likely to destroy prescious corporate property when they miss, and leave you live prisoners to interrogate instead of bloody masses to scrape off the linoleum. |
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Nov 21 2006, 06:22 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
3.) there are some threads on dumpshock dealing with combat challenge. If your problem right now is invisibilty, I used my search fu to a find a thread that should give you some ideas: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=12709
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Nov 21 2006, 06:26 PM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Flashbangs do well here. AoE Stun attack that hits everything, invis or not, but wont mess up the building, save a scorch mark on the floor where each one lands. |
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Nov 21 2006, 06:52 PM
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#8
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Great points here so far, so I'll chime in my views:
You are the law. They may not agree, but someone has to keep the game moving. As you become more comfortable with the rules then you'll all see more eye-to-eye. Make a decision (and a note) and discuss afterwards to keep things moving. I only tend to stop gameplay if something critical (player death) might need immeditate review.
Consider the role of the NPC in your games. If they kill important people, people tend to come looking for the missing person. There must be consequences to player actions. Also, if it's critical an NPC not die then don't let them. The "appear dead" or the players never quite saw them dead. IF the decide to blow them to pieces (literally) then enough cells remained to clone them, etc., etc. You make the rules, you win. ;)
We ran into similar problems long ago when all SR meant to us was combat and killing things (although we do still enjoy that ;)). Improv invis is not the end-all-game-breaker. Astral things can get around invisibility easier than non-astral things (Spirits, Wards, FAB, Astral patrolling things, etc.). Setup situation that require more than just "sneaking by". Checkpoints with physical doors than must be opened, pressure pads, Ultrasound sensors, etc., help detour the "just go Invis" mindset GM's often direct players to. My last piece of advice is Be Fair. Just because the players have bested your plans or idea doesn't mean they should be punished. Spend a little more time planning or considering other ways players could break your plans. Suspend reality a little to make what is a "typical office complex with typical security" be more than they might have bargained for. |
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Nov 21 2006, 06:57 PM
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#9
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Sit down outside of the game (before, after, on an different day even) and bring this up for discussion. Explain to them that in order for the game to go smoothly, you would prefer that they not argue overly much during a game. It's your job as GM to make the game work and to make it fun for the players. Sometimes, that means that you'll make calls that not everyone immediately agrees with. The important thing is to get it out in the open that you're going to make calls sometimes that might not be 100% correct. Explain to them that you're more than willing to discuss your rulings with them, but that it should be after the game is over. You're making calls mid-game to keep the game moving and fun, and if they stop the game to argue constantly, neither of those is occurring.
Start at the players' contacts. Flesh them out. Remember that every NPC is a "person" just like the characters are. They have wants, needs, goals, and most importantly, personalities. Try to give each NPC something that makes them immediately recognizable. Maybe one has a pronounced limp (and a story behind it), one coughs a lot whenever you talk to them. Once you've got those, make sure that you present these "quirks" enough when playing the NPC that the players start associating them. Then, once the players have developed some attachment to their contacts, slowly start weaving the contact's lives into the story. It doesn't have to be much, just enough that the players start to connect "NPC" with "matters". Give NPCs lives. That's basically the best advice I can give you on that one.
Getting your NPCs' combat capabilities right takes experience. And here I don't just mean "overall GM experience". You have to experience, or see, how the characters/players in the current game are built, how they handle situations, and what they're capable of. Then, armed with that knowledge, you can start customizing your NPCs/challenges to the characters' abilities. Also, keep in mind that in order to have any semblance of realism, you have to accept that not every NPC will be a challenge for the players/characters, and nor should the players/characters[/i] always be capable of defeating every NPC. If it were "real", some people would be easy challenges for the characters, and some wouldn't. The best bet at first is to try and use some ready-made, or "template" NPCs. See how the players handle them, and then adjust them for the next time. This works great for "goons" such as lower level security guards and stuff like that. As far as them using magic as a "insta-win", just remember that the best defense against magic is magic. :D Give the opposition a combat mage. Give them wards, paracritters, spirits, elementals, and whatever else it takes to provide your players with a challenge. Again, keep in mind that sometimes it's not reasonable for the opposition to have a mage. Sometimes a magic trick will give the players an out and out advantage. But just as often, magic should present them with a challenge. As to editing your post title, if you'll let me know what you'd like to change it to, I'll fix it. |
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Nov 21 2006, 07:34 PM
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#10
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Please don't do this, especially in the group you've got now. They seem very intent on "winning" and if you do this they'll view it as cheating. It's much better to teach them not to randomly kill people then it is to enforce your story on them via the Hand of God. An option for this though is to let them know that important NPCs will have access to the Hand of God rule that players get, letting them burn edge to survive. Either one of these might have the effect of them killing people anyway, since they know the ones that aren't supposed to die won't be able to. |
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Nov 21 2006, 07:51 PM
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#11
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
As Konsaki said: grow a pair. Ideally you should be right as well, but ultimately you are the GM. YOU run the game and make the rules. Stick to your guns. You may be in a situation where it's a group of friends and you wouldn't normally tell them what is and isn't right. But if you're running the game, you have to be in charge.
You need to pay more attention to the plot to solve this. You need to set the game up so that they can't ignore the NPC and killing has adverse consequences. As a GM, there are countless ways you can do this. Create a spy style game, use more characters that they have to interact with - an annoying fixer, a mysterious johnson. Don't give up on this and don't bow to pressure. And don't be afraid to kill a few to establish realism in your game. In fact, I think killing a few players at the start of every campaign is almost invariably a good thing.
To be honest, it sounds like you are running a dungeon crawl sort of game. Enter Room A, fight the guards, enter room B, fight the guards. The reason it sounds like this is because a well set up Shadowrun mission should be like a house of cards. Make a mistake and it all comes down on top of you. We're talking very sharp cards, here, by the way. The opposition should be able to flatten the shadowrunning team. The only thing that protects them is preventing the enemy from focusing all its power on them. This usually means stealth and speed. If they're killing guards left right and centre and lingering to do so, then reinforcements should arrive. Immediate suggestions are: 1. All guards are in communication and check in frequently. Heck they probably crack jokes and banter to each other over their commlinks for the whole time they're patrolling. Anyone dropping out of communication triggers investigation in force immediately. 2. Reinforcements are on hand. Let the players know that after an alert has been triggered they have fifteen minutes before Knight Errant arrive (or whoever). Additionally a spirit summoning wage mage can be there in a minute via astral. 3. Smart opposition. Even the average security guard should be smart enough to sneak round the back of the players. And getting shot in the back hurts. Especially by a drone. 4. Building security. All internal locks becoming active when an alert is triggered. That sort of thing. Remember this is 2070! 5. Read the rules. Properly. Firstly, there are plenty of counters to things like the Improved Invisibility. Secondly, one of the fundamental principles of Shadowrun is eggshells armed with hammers. Your players may be able to dish out a lot of damage, but try having four guards shooting SMGs at a player on burst fire and see what it does to him. The characters wont be able to take much damage, no matter how much they dish out. |
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Nov 21 2006, 07:58 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
While you're the DM and can enforce the rules. Make sure you have a solid understanding of them. If you don't know how spell drain works and keep inventing new rules for surprise tests the players are right to complain! I had a DM once that only knew how to tell a story, not resolve a pistol fight. But he always insisted he could make his own rules instead of reading the combat chapter on surprise tests.
Secondly, you don't have to beat PC's with dice pools, just bust out the good tactics and they fall down and go boom. What is your party made up of? Do you have a copy of their sheets? Do you know their stats and equipment? You should! Post it and I'm sure the most well built combat monkey has some weak spots. |
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Nov 21 2006, 08:30 PM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 17-October 06 Member No.: 9,636 |
1) Other people have said it; you're the GM, tell them that your ruling stands until after the session and you can discuss/debate afterwards. It is easier said than done, but trust me, you have to stand firm.
2) NPCs are disposable, but that doesn't mean that if they die, consequences don't occur. Remember, NPCs have what players do not - potentially unlimited resources. Your NPCs are the ones rewarding the players with money, access to gear, information and other goodies. If all the NPCs are getting whacked/robbed, people will stop going to the players or set them up for ambushes to take them out as revenge. A Mr. Johnson that your players rely on for info. may feel that they are getting to "hot" and notorious and needs to "distance himself" from them for a short time... Let the players sweat it out - they have a life-style to maintain, right? A few months of no work may cut their funding and make them realize that the SR world is not their barrel of fish to shoot at. 3) Fight fire with fire. If your players are using magic - use magic against them. Why is it only they can use Improved Invisibility? Don't be afraid to kill players either; especially if it seems like they need to learn a lesson or two about going into every situation guns blazing with a huge dice pool. Eventually they'll learn that planning, tactics, and a more subtle approach may be the way to go. They might even learn that combat isn't necessary to achieve their goals. I've played in SR missions where the most violent thing we had to do was pass on a dish of deep fried scallops (allergy: Shell fish!) |
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Nov 21 2006, 08:44 PM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Huh? You mean you've never had an NPC "die" and then turn-up later to confront the players? I mean, I can see your point, but *never* invoking your will for a desired outcome seems a bit harse IMO. |
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Nov 21 2006, 09:00 PM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
It's happened, but not because they managed to kill him and I didn't want that. It only happens when it has a reason for happening inside the game. So if the fallen knight is of an order that would raise them, or the evil overlord has clones, that's known in advance (and the players may have chances to find that out. I would never just decide on the spur of the moment that Mr. Mysterioso needs to survive until the end of the run, so even though they've already filled him with lead they didn't actually kill him.
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Nov 22 2006, 07:51 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
For making combat challenging, as well as building and roleplaying NPCs, I consider Blackjack a good source of advice. It's out of date, but his suggestions never really go out of style. |
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