 Astral Space and general mage questions |
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 Nov 22 2006, 04:18 PM
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#26
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Neophyte Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67  |
Back up a second, everyone. Stop talking about text and about reading for a moment. Because, really, magicians don't read on the astral. They don't see on the astral. They don't smell on the astral. They don't touch on the astral. They don't hear on the astral. Again, they don't read on the astral. It doesn't matter if the text is clear, glowing, or dancing around on the page. Because that isn't how information is conveyed on the astral plane.
I worded it specifically as "all but impossible" for a reason. It is possible that text becomes clearer on emotionally charged objects observed from the astral. Astral shadows can have more definition on the astral plane if they are emotionally signficant. So maybe someone could make out the text. But that's the not the important part. Because if the object is emotionally significant enough for that text to be clear, the magician doesn't need to read it. He can discern the meaning of it just by sensing it. He will just know what it says. He didn't actually have to look at the letters. If he carefully assenses the object, he can get very specific information, more specific than the text would ever carry in the real world. He could possibly sense the emotional imprints left by other readers or the author, or where the object has been. The text is not the important part. Reading is not the important part. |
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Nov 22 2006, 04:36 PM
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#27
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Also, I know phrasing like "all but impossible" drives some readers nuts. But I hate to come down hard on something like this, because I really don't think it's necessary. I could have said it was impossible, but then some reader might run with that and take it to ridiculous extremes, like the Hollywood sign example ("sorry, you can't read the giant billboard letter, the rules say it's impossible!").
If a GM wants a book in his game that has carried so much emotional significance that the text is perfectly clear in the astral, it is allowed. I didn't want to forbid that in the rules and FanPro didn't want to forbid it, so we didn't. But in most cases, that's not how information is conveyed in the astral, so I tried to de-emphasize the importance of text. I wish I could have written up a bunch of examples and suggestions, but there just wasn't the word count for that. I would like to go into more depth on this topic on my work blog, but right now I'm neck-deep in Corporate Enclaves and don't have the time. But it's on my to-do list. |
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Nov 22 2006, 05:02 PM
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#28
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
I had assumed that this is why you left it as ambiguous as you did. It allows for exceptions while setting the common rule. What drives me "nuts", personally, isn't that you wrote it that way, but that there are people that take what is obviously an exception and try to extrapolate it as the general rule. At any rate, thanks for the extra information. |
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Nov 22 2006, 11:14 PM
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#29
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The point that people (well I, at least) were trying to make is that this one bit of text is the the sum total of SR4's description of reading on the Astral .. rules or fluff-wise. There are a lot of people who have never read anything released about Shadowrun prior to the advent of SR4 (and even some that don't come here and benefit from our collective wisdom), and so these people would not know that there has, in the past, been a hard-and-fast rule disallowing Astral reading, and would only have that one bit of text on which to make any kind of ruling. Since that one bit of text does not specifically disallow Astral reading, nor does it even give helpful hints on just what type of exceptional situation in which it would be possible, it is totally left up to each individual GM to fill in the blanks. Now with us old-timers, we just naturally go by what has always been (because, as you say, if it were to change, surely they'd mention it), but the SR4 newcomers don't have that same legacy knowledge ... And therein lies the problem, and the crux of my point. All of which could have been solved by the inclusion of a couple of examples, as DE stated that he originally intended. |
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Nov 22 2006, 11:20 PM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
Well, I for one have been trying to shake old SR3- out of my head, because I feel that it happens a lot that I rely on something that is old and end up being dead wrong.
The ones that have gotten me in the past are: Drain is no longer always Physical while astrally projecting. Power foci no longer add their rating to your Magic attribute. Bascially I attempt to look at all SR4 material with fresh eyes and exclude my prior SR experiences... Because some things that were fundamental before are very different now... |
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Nov 23 2006, 02:19 AM
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#31
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
I wouldn't say that I originally intended to include examples. It would have been nice if I could have, but I knew from the beginning there wouldn't be room for it. It'd be a lot of wasted word count to dwell on whether you can read or not in astral space. Because, really, it's not going to break the game if a GM decides you can or can't read in the astral plane. |
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Nov 23 2006, 02:36 AM
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#32
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
To put this to bed. The question was raised in the FAQ and the answer will be something to very close to what Demonseed posted above. The explanation of how assensing and astral senses work is clear in both the basic book and Street Magic. You do not see on the astral, and what you can sense are shadows and impressions. That means you cannot read on the astral.
You may see the shape of the book, the shadow of the text, but there is nothing there to be read, the shadows of shapes of letters "mean" nothing, because you're not seeing with your eyes and processing meaning, instead you are feeling/(as)sensing their emotional content if any. All that carries over is a sense of significance and emotion, and then the more emotionally charged or significant some piece of text is the cleared the meaning is conveyed on the astral (never the wording). Stuff like the Hollywood sign, or a lovingly-cared-for, hand-written 12 century bible are the extreme exceptions which "all but impossible" is meant to address, but if individual groups want to draw a different line they're free to do so. |
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Nov 23 2006, 02:57 AM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
well, you can see auras through clothing. so perhaps something other than just laminate, and that might allow the 'light' through... maybe more of a paper-type medium, with something similar to FAB living in it. of course, the paper wouldn't last too long, assuming the FAB would eat it, but hey, this is an imperfect science after all :P |
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Nov 24 2006, 09:40 AM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Demonseed" While you have given why your reason for 'all but impossible' why the inclusion then of:
To me this is the compelling argument. Nothing as harsh as 'all but impossible' but merely 'difficult to discern'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It sounds like you are saying SR3/4 didnt change in which case ANYTHING but the rough physical dimensions' are impoosible to discern of the 'physical' item; however, Emotional residue may be attached and carry forward. So a mass-printed book about Interal Revenue Code, would be described as a grey block about 9"x12"x6". A First Eddition Hardback of SR. A 9"x12"x1" rectangle. While mostly uniformed grey, it seems to be lit with msotly green (love) light, though the full colors of the rainbow wash over it, strangely you have the sense of a mountain size pile of dice be tossed onto the ground :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ IS this the intent for SR4 still? If so the referenced quote above is far more contradtive then the 'all but impossible'. It soundsl like it should have been (paraphrased roughly): Astral perception allows you to discern the rough physical dimensions of things present in the mundane world. Emotions however caryy power and on the astral things with emotional context will have a residue of energy (same way a spell will leave a residude behind), that can carry addiotional information/feeling/etc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A dagger would be a 6=8" long object pointed on one end, with perhaps a handle on the other. A dagger used to defend oneself. The object appears to be to be 6-8" long with a point one one end and perhaps a handle on the other. However, it glows bright with a solid aura of determination and stocism. As you peer deeper (actually make a assensing roll), you also notice flickers of fear, pain, and hatred. You feel an overwhelming sense of the desire to protect your home and hearth. At it core you feel the cold sense of death, but also a blazing hot feeling, thatt even if dying you know that the wielder took one of the attackers with them. Is that the intended meaning. As such the 'hollywood' sign could be 'read' since the 'rough physical dimensions' specify letters and the human mind could comphrenend letters. A very large billboard though, even if the letters were 10' high, couldnt be read since the 'dimensions' would still be a board about X feet, by Y feet, (by fractional inch the paint might 'raise' the letters. So the grey area would become something like letter blocks. A 1" cube, but with letters raised 1/4" on each side. Would the 'rough physical dimensions' allow you to make out the 'texture' (since it is a reasonable percentage of the overall dimensions) or would you see merely a 1" cube. Likewise. If somebody took the House numbers OFF the door and hung them on a string (so they are 'free floating' then you could discern their shape (and the human mind could discern the meaning behind that shape). However if they numbers were 'nailed' to the door. The rough physical dimensions then be 3'x7'x2" and the 'shape' of the letters get blurred into the rough physical dimensions of the door they are no part of. Is this the intended feeling. Personally I like this better (and this is how we always ruled previous verisions), but the line about it being difficult (from from impossible) to discern: Features such as color, texture, smell, taste, sturdiness, text, and images, pretty much points a person in the other direction. Not the text is specifcally saying the FEATURES can be discerned NOT emotional context of said features. |
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Nov 24 2006, 09:54 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
SYnner I hate to disagree. But
versus
The Basic Book is VERY clear you CAN discern the 'PHYSICAL DETAILS' of an object: Color, Texture, Smell, Taste, Sturdiness, Text, and Images. They may not be 'easy' to discern, but they are difficult to discern. Which very clearly says they ARE discernable. Note: The text is the 'PHYSICAL DETAILS' not the emotional details. Anybody that has never played previous editions or is playing the famous 'RAW" would have to say it is possible to discern: The physical details of real-world objects are not as distinct in their astral shadow counterparts. Features such as color, texture, smell, taste, sturdiness, text, and images. If the intended is as you and Demonseed post (which I prefer and can accept :-) then it isnt a FAQ issue. It is a VERY serious ERRATA issue. The wording of that quote is far more inaccurate then the 'all but impossible' one Demonseed chose to comment on. All but impossible does make it sound like in general it could not be done and 'special' circumstances apply (such as strong emotional content). However
States that while it might not be evident at 'a glance' and implication might be it requires an 'observe in detail' action. that the 'Physical' details of real world-objects can be determined to include: COLOR, TEXTURE, SMELL, TASTE, STURDINESS, TEXT, and IMAGES. Which from the posting here all are impossible to determine from the PHYSICAL details. (now Emotional details might relay some of those impressions, but emotional details have nothing to do with physical details.). A rusted/corroded/ time worn sword, that serverd its wielder wonderfull 500 years ago. Likely still carries the impression of the unbreakable weapon that got its owner though hundred and thousands of fight, while 'physically' it might dissolve into oxide the instant fresh air entiered the tomb. Here on the forusm it has been implied by people that should know, that the 'physical details' are NOT posible to determine from the astral (save perhaps the rough physical dimensions), yet the main book clearly states in the rules (not even a italicised 'fluff' or sidebar) that far more can be discern of the physical characterstics. This need to be an errata not a FAQ if the physical details can NOT be discerned. |
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Nov 24 2006, 02:14 PM
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#36
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
The physical details can only be discerned through the emotional details. There is no physical on the astral plane.
That means that those details are difficult to discern. Are they impossible to discern? Not necessary, as I already said in a previous post. But neither are they something that can automatically be discerned. Whether or not those details are discernable on a given item is pretty much up to the GM, because it depends on the strength of the item's presence on the astral plane. With some items, it may be a fairly simple matter to make out some physical details because those physical details factor into the item's emotional presence on the astral plane. With other items, those details may have no emotional significance whatsoever, making them basically impossible to determine. You seem to want a universal standard, but there isn't one on the astral plane. |
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Nov 24 2006, 02:45 PM
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#37
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
You perceive on the astral plane whatever the GM or story requires.
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Nov 26 2006, 11:06 AM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Demonseed: "The physical details can only be discerned through the emotional details." This statement itself is a contradiction since emotional details are not physical details. If a mage looks at say a piece of the Decleration of Independance. Emotionally he sees the script the intent and the 'resolution' behind it vivid and well defined. Is he going to be surprised when they 'get' there and notice a small scrap of paper that look like one quarter of the document? If physical details can only be discerned through the emotional details, then to most any 'piece' of something to do with the entire decleration movement, IS the whole thing. That one corner of paper IS all that men have given and sacrificed in the name of freed for hundreds of years. The tiny slip of paper IS the reason why countless people have bled and died so that others could be free. Emotionally that tiny fragment is the exact same as the whole. Does the mage think he is looking at the Decleration of Independance / 'The United States of Amerca / Everyman, woman, and child that has sacrified in the name of the US, or ? IF the emotional deatils of a 'mundane' object become the apparent 'physical details' on the astral what are the limits. Are the 'physical' dimensions still present, or does the object appear to be the size of the 'emotional' dimensions. Likewise take Linus from Charlie Brown and his 'blankie'. Physically it is a worn, ragged, whole torn peice of fabric. Emotional it is a solid barrier able to resist anything that threatens him and is the very foundation of why he is safe. Now ifhe ducks into a closet and drapes the blankie over the door and a mage goes hunting him. Does the mage report that he is hiding in a closet 'up there' and there is a ragged peices of something hanging over the door. or Hmm we better get the heavy equipment hs appears to be in somekind of safe room, with a pretty substantial barrier in front of it, we are probably going to need torches and prybars to get through it. In fact its probably going to be easier to go through the neighboring walls. SR3 or less, my impression and rulings would always have been the mage can tell there is some kind of blanket / fabric / piece of cloth covering a door to the room where the child is. Although the cloth has a very strong emotional attachment to the child with feelings of safety and protection. The 'emtional' characterstics of the blanket never appears to be the 'physical' charactersitics. However you descriptions of trying to explain the wording of the main book, imply the physical details are discernable through the emotional details, in which case physically the blanket appears to be some impassable barrier to the party in which case the party needs to find some way around, or come back with blasting charges. How would you describe: Linus' blanket covering the doorway he is hiding in to a astral percieving player? |
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Nov 26 2006, 11:07 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Is there one in SR4 though? Or is every case of astral perception a case of GM must decide with no framework provided by the game mechanics. |
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Nov 26 2006, 11:45 AM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Note:
Not trying to be a heckler, etc. For my games, I have a fairly firm view of how it all works. (in my games atleast :-) However, in asking just about every gamer in my area who HASNT played previous shadowrun editions so no preveious verision biasis, but giving them the books then asking them. the Scenario given: Within a walkin vault: A page from a published book (common enough most libraries would have a copy of it but not important / extremley popular book )has been placed on a table. The goal is to identify the book and page number. You have a begining made character that is capable of Astral Projections and has the Assensing skill. (any legal begining powers / skills / builds allowed), is it possible for the mage to learn the identify of the page. Every single one of them said it would be 'readable' with enough effort. Note that it might be readable if the 'sutation' is right (read emotional context), but with enough effort (diffculty) a person could read items. 4 out of 10 game masters (who had never run any verision of shadown), basically came out with varaiotns of my You would have to 'discern' each text/iamge/etc. so getting the title of a book, would be moderatly difficult / time consuming but not 'all but impossible' reading a full document though would be 'all but impossible' due to the number of tests/time invovled. 5 of the 10 game masters replied that they would adlib initially if it came up, depenging on what was needed (if they party need a break would allow it, if it would give too much they couldnt read it), and it is something they would have to seriously think about and make an offical 'rule' on how it works. 1 of the 10 game masters said they would make any 'rule' but would just allow amounts depending on the need and the time spent. He would consider how much 'effort' the person put into discerning it, and what was needed to move the game along and give 'something'. (as a note this GM run Amber almost exclusively and is a typical 'Amber' answer. 17 of 26 'players' asked said that with effort / work that they should be able to atleast paritially read what ever document they were scanning. Tthe said they werent certain how much they would be able to get and/or how long or how 'hard' but were confident they should be able to read 'something' on the page, and that the question is how much could 'they get' and then how much would then have to be 'data searched' to find a match. 4 of the 26 had said: They would try to 'read' the page astrally since nothing mentioned any kind of 'magic' protection, but were not certain they could read it enough to identify it, but siad couldnt we send a spirit to read it then come back to us and tell us (a very good idea IMO). 5 of the 26 said they would try to read it but wouldnt be certain they could (thought it was 'possible' but only by the 'best'). then said they would probably spy/easy drop on the person doing the contest or look at finding out who put it 'in the vault' etc. If reading didnt pan out. The point is 36 people out of 36 people, thought it was atleast 'possible' that they would be able to read the page (or alteast a porition of it) enough to identify it (with perhaps additional 'data reseach' Every one of the game masters were under the impression that it would be possible to get 'something' from the text, with work / effort / luck. 17 of 26 players were confident that could get enough to identify the page, it was a case of how much 'data searching' would need to be done to get a match with what they could 'read'. 9 of the 26 thought is was possible they could read it, but werent certain THEY would be able to read it. Every one of them thought by the rules it would be a possible way to get the information, but wasnt certain THEY could and were looking for alternatives. Either way not a single person out of 36 non-shadowrun gamers at my local hobby store thought it would be impossible to read (given the above information and my take on what you are saying are the intent (if not the wording) of the rules. While I can agree with your stated intent (and my own descrpition of how asrtal perception and mundane object work shows it), the question raised out my local gaming store weekend event pretty much gives (purposelly only asked to people who 'never played shadowrun' but provided copies of the books to read / reference (with no other information besides the scenario above), does show that totally 'novces' certainly get another impression when reading the books and then looking at the issue. Note: No input besdies a copy of SR4 and Street magic was provided save the 'scenario' text (very close paraphrase since I dont have the a copy of the questionaire with me). While nt 'policed' each person was instructed this was supposed to be 'thier' thoughts and how they would answer it with nothing but the rule books. The people were told they would expect to be able to give atleast some 'reason' for their answer (just to keep them from writting somethign down). This was part of a 'giveaway' that folks at the store could win store credit by testing their knowledge and/or participating in event. This was rated as a 'opinion' event, and they were told there was not right or wrong answer, but they were given points for merely doing it. (PS: All 7 copies of the stores on-hand copies of the main book sold :-) and thw two copies of Street Magic sold, with 3 more order placed for it. The store was happy with my contribution to events. (and this is why the store held it is to promote awareness of games/products that others might not have read. $1000 dollars total 'giveways' and over $5000 dollars in sales for the event. (admitedly all of the extra employess and several patrons, contributed the 'time' but all told the store was happy with the results) |
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Nov 26 2006, 05:17 PM
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#41
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
And so it came to pass that GMs no longer had to think and decide for themselves. On that sad, lonely day, there was writ a permanent ruling for everything. Everything from the result required to shoot a gun to whether a character could pick his nose whilst riding a suborbital from one port to another and humming "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes".
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Nov 26 2006, 05:31 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Iraq Member No.: 1,789 |
laughingowl, you say you're trying not to heckle, but you are. You're arguing with the creators of the rule about phrasing? Not everything has to have an exact universal standard for what the fuck happens or a description for everything. If you want that, go play D20. It's emotions. It's up to the GM. It's up to what the GM and the players decide :eek: Wow, there's a concept. GMs and players talking between each other to make their game funnier for each of them. Hmm, sounds revolutionary, maybe we should go burn down WizKids and Fanpro headquarters. :S
The point is, with astral space and Shadowrun, it's up to the GM. The GM gets to decide what the book was trying to discern and you, the player, sucks it up and plays. Maybe if you have a problem you should try a conversion of Shadowrun to some more concrete rules. That way you can have everything explained down to the last detail. Good Luck. p.s. I still find it odd that our spell check doesn't include the word Shadowrun. |
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Nov 26 2006, 11:55 PM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
the spellcheck has very few shadowrun based words at all. it's just a standard spellchecker. probably came attached to the boards, and was more of a nuisance to remove than it was worth (which is unsurprising, since there's no real benefit to removing it in the first place) so it just got left. anyways, as i recall you can read while manifesting anyways, so it's not really a big deal if someone rules you can read from the astral imo. |
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Nov 27 2006, 03:31 PM
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#44
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
There was someone that had a dictionary update file kicking around, but IIRC it was for stuff like your word processor and the like.
If anyone's interested and doesn't know yet, Firefox 2.0 includes a real time spell checker that you can add words to. It seems to be pretty good, and you can teach it SR words so it stops nagging you about them. (I think IE has something you can add that gives it this functionality too.) |
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Nov 27 2006, 04:15 PM
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#45
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
isn't that called "replacing your browser with something better"? :P |
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Nov 28 2006, 02:57 PM
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#46
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Well...I didn't want to say it....
;) |
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Nov 29 2006, 01:20 AM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
WhiskeyMac:
I am not trying to heckle I am trying to verify what was intended, which seems to contradict what was printed. Demonseed's posted indicate the intention is that no physical details are possible to discern, but emotional details (if present) are discernable and might give the impression of physical details. Personally I am fine either way (see my reply below to Eidolon); however, as I occasionally run tournaments for my local game store, I prefer to run them as 'raw' as possible, so as not to mislead often first time gamers into thinking 'my' games are the 'official' way. Eidolon: Rest Assured I can most certainly run games on my own and for My games I certainly do; However, I often run games for beginers at local events (and/or answer questions), for this I will not answer My verision unless directly asked for alternatives, I will answer with the rules as written. For 'tournement' or 'intruduction' type events the 'offical' rules should be understood and followed (or it made very clear that this rule is a house rule and ideally why. I play (or run) normally to have fun. At this level, the 'rules' dont really concern me one bit save as a guideline to make sure everyone is on the same general ball park. As a player, I dont really care about the rules, I do what my character would and listen to what the GM says. (if asked or think it possible he might have overlooked something I will mention it but not becuase 'its the rules' but know the work of keeping track of everything). At times however, I 'teach' and/or run introductory games. These I run with a rules nazi good enough for any con. WHile house rules are good for campaigns / house games, they do not go well when the intent is to introduce people to a game product. |
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Nov 29 2006, 01:33 AM
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#48
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i dunno about that. if you're introducing them to SR4, introducing to the concept of houserules or at least house-specific clarifications early and often might not be such a bad idea :P |
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Nov 29 2006, 02:36 AM
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#49
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
@ laughingowl,
I'm sure you can. My point (and I mention it fairly frequently) is that there's no such thing as one set of rules, for any RPG. Never has been, probably never will be. Whether you're interpreting and adjudicating a strict line of text that you feel only has one meaning, or you're running a rule that is worded ambiguously, you're still running it the way you feel is "right". And there will still be someone that thinks you're running it incorrectly. In this case, to follow on your statement that you run the game by the book, answering with your version is running it by the book. The book leaves enough ambiguity that the GM can rule as he or she sees fit, so that the ruling fits his or her game world. You are the GM, and that's a GM's job. I really don't know how or when this "must run by one standard, must not deviate from the black ink of holiness, must have the right answer" thing started *cough cough d20 cough*, but it's certainly a pervasive delusion. :) And as far as "con vs. home" goes, I'd argue that it's not that the rules are being run "perfectly" so much as that in that atmosphere, there's more impetus to not argue and nitpick than there is when you're at home with your regular group. Sure, when you're teaching someone to play, you want to give them as solid a footing as you can. But in cases where GM discretion is called for, you shouldn't feel wary of making a choice, "official" game or not. And in doing so, you're not doing any damage to a new player's take on the game. If anything, you're showing that player what a GM is there for (in part, of course). |
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Nov 29 2006, 03:06 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
Totally agree here, and 'GM discretion' is something I will even often explain and some of the reasnoing behind. (for example: 'what' I chose to happen on a glitch and/or critical glitch). However, especially (IMO) for introduction / 'con' style games the 'atmosphere' should be consistant. If I want to use SR rules, but play in anothe setting (or just my own verision of setting) for a house game absolutely no problem. If somebody is being introducted to the game (or joining a con game), 'Fundementals' they are going to expect to remain the same. I can easily say in my game, ''meta-humans' dont exist and still likely have a fairly enjoyable game, this however would not be a good 'introduction' to shadowrun, and if joining at a con, most people would be confused by the meta-humans dont exist. No physical details obvous on the astral (unless backed by emotional content) Vs. visbible details indistinct and hard to discern but present is a pretty drastic change and is not ambigious but rather philosphical differences. From the posts here, the 'intent' is that physical deatils are not present, but emotional residue can convery impressions of physical details if present. However atleast in the survey done at the local gaming store 36 people our of 36 people (who said they had no previous knowledge of the shadowrun universe) where under the impression that physical deatils were present just blurry, indistinct, or otherwise 'hard to discern'... not that they were impossible to discern, save through any emotional residue that might convey physical details. I am not arguing with demonseeds (or anyone's verision of the game), I am arguing that if the intent is demonseeds as described here, the present wording is poorly reflected and this really needs to be at a minimum in the FAQ, and honestly perhaps actual errata'd. That being said I will drop the issue. I have raised with the authors/developers a confusioning description. For those that read the forums Demonseed here has made it clear his 'vision' of how it works. My games I will run my ways as always :-) For 'con' style games, I will run as described here (which is pretty much my way) and use it to explain the whole 'interrpertation' of wording and that this is one of the areas that are very likely to change. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 5th February 2025 - 07:22 AM |
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