 Do you want the Shadowrun game to do well? |
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 Nov 29 2006, 03:23 PM
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#51
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263  |
It is also why I've come to see the fears of the video game "damaging" the SR RPG as the hangwringing of a pack of fuddy-duddies. If the worst that could happen is anywhere in the neighbourhood of SR4 then I'd rest well at night....which I do. :) |
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Nov 29 2006, 03:28 PM
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#52
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
The problem with roping people in with a game that doesn't accurately depict the setting is that those new people will want to play the video game in tabletop, and get upset when they find the setting doesn't work that way. If the Video game lets you resurect people or teleport, and then the RPG doesn't, they'll lose interest because what they wanted was more video game. I do want there to be a good SR video game. I think the old sega one did a passable job. But a bad video game will hurt the RPG more than Help it.
Frankly, I think a good SR game would be a urban sandbox similar to grand theft Auto or saints row. |
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Nov 29 2006, 03:49 PM
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#53
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
That just means a somewhat more neutral effect. Assuming the people even care about those details. Sure people here do care, but there are a large number of players out there don't even know (or really care) about there being no "teleport" in SR. And Resurrection is only an issue when your character 'dies', which happens far less frequently than the video game.
That's why I'm curious with what comes out of the beta. From a distance it looks like not to bad a video game, if not a potentially good video game.
But since nobody is going to sign off on a 30-40 million dollar budget for an unproven video game franchise, with a quirky setting like Shadowrun to boot, we get back to Adam's comments. *shrug* |
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Nov 29 2006, 06:05 PM
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#54
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
I didn't accuse anyone of bringing about the demise of a franchise or anything of the sort. I simply said that dissuading potential gamers is bad for the game. RPGs need a constant influx of people. We've had that so far, and we just need to be sure that it keeps going. I'm doing my part by bringing up my daughter as a geek. ;) I would argue that the FanPro of today is somewhat weaker than the FASA of SR1 and 2 days, though. I'm also a bit annoyed by the general tone that a person that plays a video game is inherently inferior to someone that plays an RPG. The suggestion is that someone that comes to SR because they enjoy the videogame is going to be unble "to meet the intellectual demands of running SR as a RPG" (by the by, have you met the majority of the SR GM's?) because they came from video games.... I know you're old and curmudgeonly - so am I. I've watched several generations of gamers come and go, and I've seen them change. I don't think RPGs are going to die out by any means. But I also think people who exclude gamers because they aren't "the right kind" of gamers are doing a disservice to gaming. And I daresay that at least some of the people that exclude people from gaming are the same people that were pissed off in high school because people excluded them from things because they were gamers (Note - this is a broader comment not directed at SL, or even really anyone here, just a general musing. ;) ) It's also a spillover of my annoyance at society as a whole that treats video games as inferior pieces or work - "Why play a video game when you could read a book?" "Video games? No, they can't have redeeming value. They're games!" Also, Dumpshock seems to exude an aura that stimulates my argument nerves. So.... ;) |
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Nov 29 2006, 06:38 PM
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#55
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
As a GM, I'm just of the opinion that the more potential players I have available, the better. If I need to sort through more chaff to get more wheat, that's an acceptable price, as long as there's more wheat there to find.
As loathe as I am to agree with blakkie, it won't be significantly "worse" than SR4. A bunch of new people come in who don't know what they're talking about. If they're stupid, we ignore them and they go away. If Fan Pro is stupid and caters to them, we already have SR2/3/3R and we already have our established players. It's a sad loss, but not especially expensive. On the other hand, along with the n00bs, we'll get some intelligent players interested as well who we may be able to win over to our cause. I mean really, who cares at this point? SR4 isn't what most of us oldbies wanted. Fan Pro is going their own way. Let them gather who they will. Just remember it's easier to convert a heretic than a heathen :P |
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Nov 29 2006, 07:46 PM
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#56
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
The game industry has changed so much in the 15+ years since the early days of SR, comparing companies between the eras really doesn't mean much. Name any game company -- with the exception of Wizards of the Coast and perhaps White Wolf -- and their market share in 2006 is probably smaller than it was in 1992, and the market itself is probably smaller too. There have been a lot of changes -- the d20 boom and bust cycle, the 3-tier distribution system becoming less reliable for many publishers, many retail stores closing, online shopping becoming more common, ebooks becoming more common ... the game industry is just way different than it used to be, even if the games aren't that much different. |
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Nov 29 2006, 08:04 PM
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#57
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Very true. But coming off the accusation of crying that the Sky is Falling for rpgs, I wanted to let someone else make that summary. ;)
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Nov 30 2006, 11:08 AM
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#58
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
The sky is falling! There will be rain after sunshine! The glas ain´t full, its 10% empty!
From what I´ve read, the game will likely be great. It will just not be a shadowrun game. At all. Now lets school some newbies in the only RAW way to play the game. |
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Nov 30 2006, 03:05 PM
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#59
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Every dark cloud has a silver lining, but lightning kills hundreds of people each year who are trying to find it.
http://www.demotivators.com/pes24x30prin.html |
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Dec 1 2006, 08:35 PM
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#60
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Target Group: Members Posts: 77 Joined: 30-June 06 Member No.: 8,813 |
I'm torn on the subject simply because I enjoy the occaisional shooter....but I think in my heart I'd really like to see the game fail. Not that I want those who spent countless hours working on it fail and be out of a job, but the lead designer needs a boot to the head. His calouse disregard for the rich Shadowrun canon is appalling.
In my mind, MS's Shadowrun game in its current conception, would fare much better if it focused on an aspect of the Shadowrun canon that is more conducive to the squad based first person shooter gaming experience. Either Urban Brawl or Combat Biking. These aspects of the Shadowrun universe are pretty wide open for some developer interpretation. A game that focused on these things as the core componet for the game I think wouldn't piss off fans of the RPG so much. They could call it "Shadowrun: Urban Brawl League" or "Shadowrun: Combat Biker". But this?....re-writing the canon? Resurrection? Teleportation? Races that do shit they aren't supposed to (magic eating dwarves? WTF??)? No Orks? No Matrix? No Mr. Johnsons? No Missions? No Fixers? Everyone is a mage? Zigguratts? No Story? No Characters? Sorry, but, even though it might be a fun shooter, IMHO, its not Shadowrun and basically its a smack in the face to all those of us who grew up with the RPG and novels. Honestly, I'd like to see the liscence rott until someone is going to do it right. Think Deus Ex or Vampire Bloodlines in terms of execution. Shadowrun is an RPG. Video Games based on the Shadowrun liscense should be......yep....you guessed it.....RPG'S! Anything else and yer "Dee Dee Dee!" How many NON-RPG games for PC do you see out there based on the Dungeon's and Dragons Liscense? I rest my case. |
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Dec 1 2006, 08:50 PM
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#61
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,654 Joined: 29-October 06 Member No.: 9,731 |
What don't you like about SR4? Bear in mind that I'm only familiar with SR2, and the only post-FASA sourcebook I have is Man & Machine for SR3. I didn't know there was any controversy over SR4. |
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Dec 1 2006, 08:52 PM
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#62
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
If I'm not mistaken, M&M was actually a FASA release.
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Dec 1 2006, 08:52 PM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 314 Joined: 25-February 06 Member No.: 8,307 |
Forgive me if I re-state some things, as I don't have time right now to read all the posts...
While this game would increase interest in Shadowrun if it did well, it would create an unrealistic and flawed view of the game, and I think that players who came from the videogame to the RPG, would be very disappointed and it would hurt the license overall. |
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Dec 1 2006, 09:02 PM
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#64
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
All of the SR3 rulebooks were FASA releases, although FanPro later reprinted most of them [and did a fair amount of work touching up Rigger 3 and turning it into Rigger 3 Revised...]
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Dec 1 2006, 09:05 PM
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#65
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Heroes of the Lance (Side Scroller) Dragons of Flame (Side Scroller) War of the Lance (RTS) Dragonflight (Flight Sim?) Fantasy Empires (Empire Builder) Stronghold (??) Tower of Doom (Arcade) Al-Qadim: The Genie's Curse (Side Scroller) Deathkeep (A DnD FPS) Shadows over Mystara (Arcade) Blood & Magic (RTS) Iron & Blood (Fighter) Dragon Dice (Um) Birthright: Gorgon's Alliance (Half RPG, Half RTS/Strategy) Dragonshard (RTS) Forgotten Realms: Demon Stone (Actiony RPG) Semi-RPG: Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance (RPGish Isometric) DnD: Heroes (RPGish Isometric) Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance II (RPGish Isometric) And if you don't count FPS type RPGs, Eye of the Beholder Eye of the Beholder 2 Dungeon Hack Ravenloft Ravenloft II Mezobonroiudsan (The Dark Elf place) Descent to Undermountain Unless that was a theoretical question.... |
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Dec 1 2006, 09:09 PM
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#66
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Shit! I was only going to mention Dungeon Hack! :D
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Dec 1 2006, 09:18 PM
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#67
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
pwnd. |
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Dec 1 2006, 09:58 PM
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#68
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Target Group: Members Posts: 77 Joined: 30-June 06 Member No.: 8,813 |
Oh....yer good. Hehe.... Gameplay style aside....now go back through those games you listed and cross out any game that has characters that have to traverse a storyline, "Level Up" and get more powerful as the game progresses. Your list will narrow substantially. The only ones I'll give you credit for are: Heroes of the Lance (Side Scroller) - Never seen this one Dragons of Flame (Side Scroller) - Never seen this one either War of the Lance (Strategy) - Old SSI game, right? Dragonflight (Flight Sim?) - Another SSI game. Man, this one sucked. Fantasy Empires (Empire Builder) - Don't remember this one either. Stronghold (Empire sim) - This was a pretty interesting game when it came out. Deathkeep (A DnD FPS) - Don't remember this one, sure yer not getting this confused with Stonekeep? Stonekeep was not a D&D liscensed game but was still very much an RPG. Blood & Magic (RTS) - Not familiar with this one either. Did SSI put this one out? Iron & Blood (Fighter) - Not familiar with this one either. Did SSI put this one out? Dragon Dice (Um) - Remember hearing about this one, but never played it so i can't comment Birthright: Gorgon's Alliance (Half RPG, Half RTS/Strategy) - half RPG? There ya go....no credit? Hmmm....... I'd like to point out, if I'm not mistaken, that the most recent of these games was "Dragon Dice" and it was released in 1997.....so were talkin' like 9 years ago. The jury is kinda out still on if I give you credit for these or not: Tower of Doom (Arcade) - Strong RPG elements, your characters leveled and bought equipment and the game had an entertaining storyline. Shadows over Mystara (Arcade) - Strong RPG elements, your characters leveled and bought equipment and the game had an entertaining storyline. Dragonshard (RTS) - RTS gameplay yes, but also had dungeon crawling quests, a strong storyline, and character leveling Forgotten Realms: Demon Stone (Actiony RPG) - Many RPG elements, good storyline, character leveling, buying equipment, etc. You get absolutely no credit for these clearly RPG games. I've played all of them before and they all are RPG, either in the spirit of the PnP game or in actual gameplay mechanics: Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance (RPGish Isometric) - Technically shouldn't be listed since its for consoles DnD: Heroes (RPGish Isometric) - Technically shouldn't be listed since its for consoles Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance II (RPGish Isometric) - Technically shouldn't be listed since its for consoles Eye of the Beholder Eye of the Beholder 2 Don't forget Eye of the Beholder 3 - Yes it really sucked. Dungeon Hack Ravenloft Ravenloft II Mezobonroiudsan (The Dark Elf place) - Its spelled Menzoberranzan Descent to Undermountain - This game blew chunks but was still an RPG. You went a LONG way back in PC gaming history for the sole purpose of trying to prove someone wrong on a forum. I'm impressed you'd put forth that kind of effort. My point was, D&D = RPG. The most successful PC games of the liscense were those that clearly attempted to capture the spirit, if not the actual gameplay mechanics of the PnP game. The Shadowrun game by MS clearly spits in the face of the PnP and novel canon with its gameplay and its justifications for its gameplay. I stand by my guns..... IMHO, the game should fail and the liscense should rot until someone can finally do it justice. |
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Dec 1 2006, 10:12 PM
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#69
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't mind that it's an FPS. as Kage said, FPS and RPG are not mutually exclusive. i'd call Shadows over Mystara an RPG, because you gained levels and new items as you went along. i'd call Castlevania: Symphony of the Night an RPG for the same reason. classic third-person run-around-the-map gameplay does not make an RPG.
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Dec 1 2006, 10:44 PM
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#70
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Now you know. And knowing is half the battle.
The list is huge; you should probably dig back for some of the topics. A few things from my list include a lack of mathematical rigor (some things have seriously nonintuitive consequences, and I'd go so far as to call some of them wrong—see the weird way glitch chance jumps around and the performance of EX-EX vs. AP against armor), the existence of non-critical glitches, the massive changes to the world (which, IMO, dramatically reduce verisimilitude, making the world a lot less interesting—I'm not dissatisfied with the existence of changes, I just think they made a lot of specifically bad changes), things like that. ~J |
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Dec 1 2006, 10:44 PM
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#71
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I seem to recollect there was a moratorium put on complaining about SR4. However yes, there was quite an upcry about it. The basic complaints came down to it "dumbing down the system" and the new dice mechanic doesn't allow for as much granularity. Feel free to search on the details of the debate if you'd like, there's a TON of stuff already written. Speaking for myself, I'm going to grab some of the changes that SR4 brought out with (decrease cyber prices and possibly introducing AR, although in a more limited version), but stick with the SR3 mechanics. |
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Dec 1 2006, 10:48 PM
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#72
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Such a ban is, IIRC, posted in the SR4 forum. It does not appear to be general in scope, as it is there and nowhere else. ~J |
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Dec 1 2006, 10:54 PM
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#73
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,156 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Fresno, CalFree Member No.: 4,252 |
I want it to do well because the people who worked on it probably have families to feed too.
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Dec 1 2006, 10:57 PM
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#74
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
No, absolutely not true. What is heavily discouraged is hijacking what could be productive threads with "SR4 sucks!" sentiments without offering productive content towards helping the original poster. "Play SR3, SR4 blows!" is not productive. "Maybe you could look into converting some of the rules from SomeThirdEditionBook to your game -- you'll need to watch for X and Y, as they're different between editions." can be produtive. |
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Dec 1 2006, 11:00 PM
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#75
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Voorhees, damn you, stop injecting humanity into my complaining. :)
Seriously though, that's the best damn reason I've ever seen anyone give for wanting it to do well. |
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