 infinite initiation?, I think I found a rules error |
  |
 Nov 26 2006, 08:37 PM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 134 Joined: 26-November 06 Member No.: 10,007  |
Ok I've reread this 10 times and it deffinately says the max innitiation is qqual to the maximum magic attribute pplus 6....and that each level of initiation raises the natural maximum by one...now when you think about it theis means a theoreticaly infinte amount of innitiations.
Is this an error or did they actually mean to do that? |
 |
 
|
|
Nov 26 2006, 08:40 PM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Where's this maximum? Page reference? I don't think I've ever seen it.
~J |
|
|
|
|
Nov 26 2006, 09:02 PM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 12-August 06 Member No.: 9,097 |
He's probably talking about the rule in SR4 that dictates that your initiate grade can't exceed your magic attribute. Of course, since raising your initiate grade also raises your maximum magic attribute, that does mean you can theoretically initiate an infinite amount of times, provided that you have an infinite amount of karma.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 26 2006, 09:05 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 248 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Note Calonna Member No.: 241 |
And an infinite amount of game sessions to get that infinite amount of karma...
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 26 2006, 10:46 PM
Post
#5
|
|||
|
Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Or just a theoretical understanding that your theoretical GM will allow you infinite karma to make the game-breaking twink that is crying to be released from your inner soul. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 26 2006, 11:05 PM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 12-August 06 Member No.: 9,097 |
To infinity, and beyond!
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 27 2006, 01:10 AM
Post
#7
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 134 Joined: 26-November 06 Member No.: 10,007 |
yeah I actually meant that magic is equal to magic plus initiation though... my mistake...anyway...So do you think that's actually what the meant or the origional attribute maximum? I mean why even discuss an initiation limit?
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 27 2006, 01:14 AM
Post
#8
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Because the Magic Attribute does not automatically go up with each initiation ... only the potential maximum. If a mage with a Magic of 6 chose to Initiate a lot, but not actually raise his Magic Attribute, then he'd eventually reach an Initiate Grade maximum at 6, and would then have to start actually raising his Magic. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 27 2006, 01:35 AM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 178 Joined: 4-September 05 Member No.: 7,682 |
Here is the way I see it. Initiation has a base cost of (10 + ( 3 * grade) ) and Magic isn't free to raise either. If we assume an average of 1 Karma per month after adjusting for time spent healing, waiting for the heat to blow over, etcetera, then you'll be waiting a couple of years between grades. Even if you're particularly active you'll be unlikely to average much over 3 Karma per month over the long-term unless you have a really generous GM.
And that is assuming that all of one's Karma goes to initiation and increasing the magic attribute; learning or quickening spells, mundane skills or raising other attributes will add to this time. Orks and Trolls will likely never live long enough (~50 years +/-) to gather any real magical mastery. This might be why the Dragons and Elves are renowned for their magical abilities; they can afford to spend a few decades or centuries practicing their craft. Humans and Dwarves are in the middle, but closer to the low end as our life spans hover around a century. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 27 2006, 01:49 AM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The rule makes it impossible for a magician with less than 1 essence to ever initiate again.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 27 2006, 01:56 AM
Post
#11
|
|||
|
Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Mmm... Burnouts... |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 27 2006, 04:25 PM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 134 Joined: 26-November 06 Member No.: 10,007 |
yeah but raising the magic is the easy part I mean this does in effect make initiation infinite. I mean if you meet once a week for a year you could easilly rack up 250-500 karma which if put soley into intitiation and magic would alolw you to take down lofweyr....lofwyr... lofewyr.... the german dragon... with one mana bolt.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 27 2006, 05:01 PM
Post
#13
|
|||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Which, what a coincidence, is the way it's already been. In SR3 and earlier terms, Harlequin is high-double-digit grade. Note that it doesn't seem that he can take down dragons with manabolts, and by all appearances he's still decently weaker than Greats (getting thrashed around on the Bridge compared to defending it singlehandedly). ~J |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 27 2006, 05:06 PM
Post
#14
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Increasing magic is new rating * 3. Initiating is 10+(3*grade) Say you start with magic 6. Magic 7 costs 13 (i) + 21 (m) = 34 Magic 8 costs 16 (i) + 24 (m) = 40 (total of 74) With 250 karma, you could have magic 11 With 300, magic 12. With 500, magic 14. So yes, with 300 karma, you could cast a force 24 mana bolt. And since you've poured all your karma in to raising your magic, you're rolling, say, 19 dice (6 magic + 6 spellcasting + 2 Spec (combat) + Power Focus 3 + Spellcasting Focus 2). 28% chance you'll get 8 successes. 45% chance you'll get 7. So you'll spend edge, and we'll say you get 13. So you're looking at 37 dice DV. Course, your target has at least 300 karma, far more if it's a GD. Oh, and afterwards, you're resisting 24 dv drain with those same dice. If you look at 500, you could boost your skills as well. Course, your street sam friend has spend 500 karma on a combination of stuff and skills, and simply uses a b52 bomber to drop megaton warheads on lowfyr's position. When you're looking at 500 karma games, you aren't dealing with runners any more. You're dealing with heads of gangers, military leaders, etc. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 27 2006, 05:32 PM
Post
#15
|
|
|
Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Gang leaders and military leaders?
Uh, no, I'd say much more powerful than that. 500 karma is a lot. I'd put the above examples at maybe 100, if you're feeling real generous. 500 is... Elite assassination squads that take out high-threat forces singlehandedly. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 27 2006, 05:37 PM
Post
#16
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
One karma per month? Your GM must be cruel and down right evil. I'd never play on advancment that slow, what be the point of tracking karma at all? At that rate it take a year to get a skill from 5 to 6. Four months to get just get rank 1 in a single skill. Of course at an average of one karma a month I must only go on runs 3 or 4 times a year. The a typical run will grant you at least 3 karma assuming you surrive and complete the objectives. So how on earth to arrive at an average of 1 karma per month!? on average. You do realize that a team could easily go on 1 run a week. Maybe it was different back in SR3 but as we are dealing with Initiate grades its SR4. If you want to run averages go with at least 3 karma per run and two runs per month. or a highly active team assume three or four runs per month. (or about ONE per week at the most) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 27 2006, 05:44 PM
Post
#17
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
How much karma you average is so different from group to group that it's meaningless to try to nail it down. To use the last post as an example, that 1 karma per month seems ludicrous to me, but so does three or four runs per week. However, both examples are perfectly logical for the person giving them.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 27 2006, 06:27 PM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
woops I ment per month. not week.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 28 2006, 04:27 AM
Post
#19
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 178 Joined: 4-September 05 Member No.: 7,682 |
I AM the GM!
Here are my assumptions on that. My group tends to spend a lot of time on research and recon when possible then pull off their mission for about 6-8 Karma. However plans go awry enough that it takes a few days to heal what the mages and hospitals can't take care of and they get paranoid enough to lay low for a few weeks, living off the loot from their last run. Obviously if they weren't so cautious they could get more Karma. Plus, the shift from SR3 to SR4 caused a 6 year 'vacation' which pulled their average down. Wage-slaves and other non-runners learn too, but there isn't much pressure so 1 Karma/month is about right for everyday living. Or paranoid runners laying low. Active runners may reasonably get a run a month without pushing themselves unless they truly piss off the wrong people. But even then it'll take YEARS of dedicated study to get double-digit Magic, longer if there are any mundane distractions. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 28 2006, 04:48 AM
Post
#20
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Yeah it should take years to get double digit magic.
The runs you send your team on appear to be equal to two runs the team I roll with goes on. Were all still green to streetwise. So If we want to maintain middle life style and cover expenses we need one and half runs a months. So we also haven't pist anyone off enougth yet to have to lay low. Well execpt for this Vory enforcer. After smoking him down in one shot from my machine pistol. (called shot -8 to ignore the armor jacked) I decided that as he wasn't dead yet to stabalize him. Then I stole his armor, gun, comlink his clothing and left him naked and wounded in a shot up house with his dead body guards for lone star or who ever to find. Might want to avoid them. |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 29th April 2024 - 05:33 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.