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> Resuscitation, A rule that's dying to be written...
NightmareX
post Nov 28 2006, 10:26 AM
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I've been wondering for a while now, how would the medical resusicitation of a dead (flatlined, no pulse, no breathing, no or minimal EKG) character work in SR4? Could it be accomplished, and if so what kind of time limits are we talking about? Like 5-10 minutes after clinical death, or less? Or would this sort of rule be unnecessary, already covered by overdamage (my gut says no, but it has been known to be wrong)?

Further, if medical resusitations are mechanically possible, how about magical resuscitation? I know about the "no raising the dead" limitation on sorcery, but that isn't exactly what I'm talking about here. To clarify, I'm talking resuscitating a recently (one hour absolute max) dead character whose body is reasonably intact - not D&D style resurrection bs. Obviously, something like this would be bleeding edge research, which would make a great Macguffin.

So, ideas anyone?
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Fortune
post Nov 28 2006, 11:46 AM
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Wouldn't this kind of thing be covered by the rules for the Stabilization test (or Spell for that matter)?
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Grinder
post Nov 28 2006, 12:11 PM
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That was my first thought to. Besides: no resurrection magic in SR! ;)
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ElFenrir
post Nov 28 2006, 12:41 PM
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Well, just try to figure the time nowadays they can do it. Someone can be clinically dead for a few minutes before being resuscitated...but four minutes may damage the brain. Seven or so minutes and you might have irreversible damage.

It happens IRL quite often, and i take it when Docwagon has 'four free resuscitations' on its Docwagon Platinium, thats exactly what it means.

As for rules. Well, perhaps, well, as long as the body is still intact(ie, no massive head or chest trauma such as Ribcage skewering heart in three places, or Tree branch in brain), id allow for it. Docwagon has enough high end gear in their day that people dont have now, even. But, in Time before Resuscitation....id call for some rolls. Brain Death is the end all be all, and that usually, under most circumstances, occurs in less than fifteen minutes after death. (In SR, after body overflow runs out.)

Of course, the doctor or machine in question has to roll some number with threshhold to see if they can even resuscitate the person. Yeah, lots of folks get 'brought back from death.'. Full on clinical death, after a few minutes. But its not easy for the doctors in question. Adjust threshhold for time elapsed.

Perhaps a Body test, or a Healing test, or whatever test it is which i cant rememeber ATM, four minutes after clinical death(Body Overflow runs out) a roll should be made. If its failed, perhaps drop Mental attributes by one each, symbolizing a bit of brain trauma from lack of oxygen. (this time can be increased with a Hibernate spell or similar Adept power. Its been said even extreme cold can prolong brain death, but this could have other negative stuff.)

When the time goes over six or seven minutes, the test gets made again, perhaps with a higher Threshhold or something(ill skim the rules and try to figure a good idea here...but threshhold should definaly be high) to see if the brain suffers brain death here. If it doesnt, then a roll should be made to see if Mental Attributes are further dropped.

Anything over eight-nine or so minutes, the brains dead. There is no point anymore, even if you managed to bring back the person, they'd be a vegetable.

Well, hmm...perhaps a working system can be built from this....its not 'glory, glory, halleljua, ressurection', but it sort of piggybacks real-life instances of coming back within a realistic amount of time.

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lorechaser
post Nov 28 2006, 02:56 PM
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My first thought on reading this thread:

An MS employee is here to attempt to build a bridge to the SR video game. ;)

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NightmareX
post Nov 28 2006, 03:29 PM
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QUOTE (ElFenrir)
Well, hmm...perhaps a working system can be built from this....its not 'glory, glory, halleljua, ressurection', but it sort of piggybacks real-life instances of coming back within a realistic amount of time.


That's exactly what I was trying to get at. IMO it would seem that clinical death occurs when the character's Overflow runs out. From the description, stabilization/overflow still deals with the body while it is dying, not already dead (sorry Fortune and Grinder ;) ).

As for the magic part - it wouldn't be resurrection magic per se, as I stated. And there's no way in hell I'd let it become common knowledge :P

As for you Lorechaser - I wish I was a MS employee! :lick: :)
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ChicagosFinest
post Nov 28 2006, 03:42 PM
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who doesnt wish to be a MS employee... well i think i would rather work for Apple right now but any of the tech companies would be AWESOME!
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hyzmarca
post Nov 28 2006, 04:23 PM
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I always though that this is why we have overflow.

As for resurrection magic, sorcery can't raise the dead. Nothing says that the dead can't be raised by other forms of magic, such as the powers of a powerful Spirit/Mentor/Passion.

I like to think that Death herself is hanging around a Goth nightclub somewhere in SR, doing her darnedest impression of Neil Gaiman's version of her just as a matter of whimsy.
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Grinder
post Nov 28 2006, 04:28 PM
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huh? Overflow of what?
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NightmareX
post Nov 28 2006, 04:50 PM
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QUOTE (Grinder)
huh? Overflow of what?


Body overflow of damage. SR4 pg 244.

QUOTE (hyzmarca)
As for resurrection magic, sorcery can't raise the dead.


IMO raising the dead and resusitation are two slightly different things. [shrug]

QUOTE
I like to think that Death herself is hanging around a Goth nightclub somewhere in SR, doing her darnedest impression of Neil Gaiman's version of her just as a matter of whimsy.


Sweeeeet ;)
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Grinder
post Nov 28 2006, 04:54 PM
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QUOTE (NightmareX)
QUOTE (Grinder)
huh? Overflow of what?


Body overflow of damage. SR4 pg 244.

Ahh, I see. I was confused, thought it was a reply to "I want to be an employee of MS or Apple"-post.
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BookWyrm
post Nov 28 2006, 05:00 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
I like to think that Death herself is hanging around a Goth nightclub somewhere in SR, doing her darnedest impression of Neil Gaiman's version of her just as a matter of whimsy.

Yeah, how she gets passed the bouncer I'll never know, she always looked underage to me. Must be her 'one-day-a-century' again.
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ElFenrir
post Nov 28 2006, 05:05 PM
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Well, depends how you look at Clinical Death vs. Brain Death.

On one hand, you could look at Clinical Death as the 'time while body overflow is running out' and Brain Death as 'after that.'

However, the fact that during Body Overflow running out, you can stabilize yourself. If your in clinical, or cardiac death, chances of you living with no attention whatsoever is nil. Once your clinically dead, no blood gets to brain, and then brain death follows.


I think that the 'cardiac death' happens AFTER overflow runs out. Overflow period is like that crucial period in the hospital where they are trying to stabilize you before you flatline.

Hmm..here is a possibility. Ill have to read over the damage and healing section of SR4 again, but the person giving the medical treatment will do their treatment roll first. Modifiers will include conditions(good, bad, terrible, etc...good would be in hospital or ambulance with medicine and defibulator(sp horrible) is available). After that, patient makes their body+ whatever roll, with modifiers accruing each MINUTE after clinical death...each minute passes is crucial. If after four minutes,...the patient, if they stabilize, also now needs to roll for some brain damage as said above(-1 Int and Log probably.)

The seven minute mark would be the limit, the healer then would take big negative modifiers, the person clinically dead would take it, and if failed, thats it, brain death occurs and nothing can really help this. Should they be hooked to machinery they'd 'live' as a vegetable maybe but thats it.

So i guess you could check each minute, usually IRL anyway, they'll try to zap a person back for aformentioned few minutes, before giving up due to brain death.

Ill try to get a possible working chart for this, something for 'and if the overflow runs out...'

I dont think this will cheapen death, either. This cannot be healed magically (unless a mage creates a Health spell called 'Defibulate' that functions as working defibulator.) Otherwise, preforming this on the street is near impossible, the modifers would be intense. And resusitation costs a loooot of nuyen if you have it done at a hospital.
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doophie
post Nov 29 2006, 04:51 AM
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Isn't that what permanently burning edge is for?
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NightmareX
post Nov 29 2006, 02:48 PM
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QUOTE (Grinder)

Ahh, I see. I was confused, thought it was a reply to "I want to be an employee of MS or Apple"-post.


No prob ;)

QUOTE (ElFenrir)
Well, depends how you look at Clinical Death vs. Brain Death.

On one hand, you could look at Clinical Death as the 'time while body overflow is running out' and Brain Death as 'after that.'

However, the fact that during Body Overflow running out, you can stabilize yourself. If your in clinical, or cardiac death, chances of you living with no attention whatsoever is nil. Once your clinically dead, no blood gets to brain, and then brain death follows.

I think that the 'cardiac death' happens AFTER overflow runs out. Overflow period is like that crucial period in the hospital where they are trying to stabilize you before you flatline.

I'll agree to that.

QUOTE
Hmm..here is a possibility. Ill have to read over the damage and healing section of SR4  again, but the person giving the medical treatment will do their treatment roll first. Modifiers will include conditions(good, bad, terrible, etc...good would be in hospital or ambulance with medicine and defibulator(sp horrible) is available). After that, patient makes their body+ whatever roll, with modifiers accruing each MINUTE after clinical death...each minute passes is crucial.  If after four minutes,...the patient, if they stabilize, also now needs to roll for some brain damage as said above(-1 Int and Log probably.)

The seven minute mark would be the limit, the healer then would take big negative modifiers, the person clinically dead would take it, and if failed, thats it, brain death occurs and nothing can really help this. Should they be hooked to machinery they'd 'live' as a vegetable maybe but thats it.

So i guess you could check each minute, usually IRL anyway, they'll try to zap a person back for aformentioned few minutes, before giving up due to brain death.

Ill try to get a possible working chart for this, something for 'and if the overflow runs out...'

Sounds like a bunch of good ideas to me. One thing I would add though is that IMO it would better to keep it a simple Logic + First Aid/Medicine roll on the part of the caregiver, modified per the Healing Modifiers table with the addition of modifiers for time (-2 per minute after overflow is surpassed perhaps?). In order to keep the patient's Body rating as a factor, perhaps the base threshold should be derived from it? Like (20 - Body) or something? So the final test would look like Logic + First Aid/Medicine (20 - Body; 1 minute)? Of course that does bring up the question of using natural or modified Body (I like modified myself).

So in for example Doc (Logic 4, First Aid 6, with a rating 5 medkit) is trying to resusitate his buddy Sam (Body 3 (5), Essence 2) in the middle of a gunfight in the street. Doc thus rolls (15 - 3 for bad conditions - 2 for Sam's Essence) 10 dice the first minute, 8 dice the second, 6 the third, 4 the fourth, and lastly 2 the fifith minute, against a threshold of 15. Hmmm....30 dice over the course of the extended test (under bad conditions) which would give an average to 20 hits. Perhaps we need a bit more draconian threshold/mods.

QUOTE
I dont think this will cheapen death, either. This cannot be healed magically (unless a mage creates a Health spell called 'Defibulate' that functions as working defibulator.)

That's essentially what I was talking about before. In the above scenario, the spell would that the place of the caregiver's skill test, most likely against a simular threshold. This first version of Defib would be limited by the seven minute window, just like normal medicine, and I could see this version being or becoming common knowledge. Anything more though would be bleeding edge and beyond.

QUOTE
Otherwise, preforming this on the street is near impossible, the modifers would be intense. And resusitation costs a loooot of nuyen if you have it done at a hospital.

Agreed in both cases.

QUOTE (doophie)
Isn't that what permanently burning edge is for?

Yes and no. This covers those that don't have Edge for one, and more importantly it's something that happens in real life that the game gives questionable notice to at best IMO. In the case above, I would allow the patient to burn Edge to bypass the process, but in the kind of games I run, characters rarely have Edge left to burn when they are well and truly screwed (I run with the rule that if you've spent all of your Edge points, you cannot burn Edge).
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Moon-Hawk
post Nov 29 2006, 03:49 PM
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I agree with the physical overflow consensus. Just say that the last box or two is "dead" but resuscitatable.
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NightmareX
post Nov 29 2006, 04:03 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
I agree with the physical overflow consensus. Just say that the last box or two is "dead" but resuscitatable.

That would be the easiest way to do it.
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Dread Polack
post Nov 29 2006, 07:47 PM
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Without actually looking up the word, I assume "Resuscitation" - I believe it means to get the heart start after it stopped, it's clear the rules don't exactly cover this. One of the things that SR and most RPGs don't cover is the cinematic system of life and death, damage, and unconsciousness. My other favorite RPG system- the HERO system, STUN damage is tracked separately from BODY (physical) damage and you can be KOed without taking any BODY, and you can begin to start bleeding to death while conscious.

In SR, a stunning attack won't do physical damage at all until after you are KOed and the attacker continues to beat your unconscious body. This is neither realistic or cinematic. Gunshots or other physical attacks won't KO you until you're pretty much dead (in overflow). I assume that being in overflow simulates being unconscious, bleeding to death (internally or externally), and your heart doesn't stop until you reach negative Body. There are no rules for this, unless you assume that once you're in overflow, your heart has stopped, and "stabilizing" someone is the equivalent of resuscitation.

One way to handle it is to say that once a character has reached the point of certain death, he can burn a point of Edge and say that he miraculously survives, either through self-stabilization or resuscitation. This might be good enough. It's probably good enough for me. Other than that, you'd have to whip up some house rules for resuscitation after character death.

Dread Polack
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Charon
post Nov 29 2006, 08:52 PM
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I wonder...

1 - Get shot full of lead and die.
2 - A mage, in the following seconds, makes an uber healing spell, overcasting and using edge liberrally to heal ten boxes or so. You're still dead, but your body is no longer full of holes.
3 - A medic resuscitate you, using good old time tested techniques to restart the heart.

Possible? Hmmm...
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Moon-Hawk
post Nov 29 2006, 08:56 PM
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It seems to me that a healing spell would have no effect whatsoever on a corpse.
Repair, maybe?
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Charon
post Nov 29 2006, 09:24 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Nov 29 2006, 03:56 PM)
It seems to me that a healing spell would have no effect whatsoever on a corpse.
Repair, maybe?

Nothing about it in the spell description.

Beside, a freshly deceased corpse's cells are still alive. The whole body is still full of life. It's just not working anymore, because it's broken.

I'm suggesting that the heal spell can repair the damage and then you can resuscitate just like any other cardiac arrest.

Makes sense if my fantasy world, anyway.
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Moon-Hawk
post Nov 29 2006, 09:31 PM
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QUOTE (Charon)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Nov 29 2006, 03:56 PM)
It seems to me that a healing spell would have no effect whatsoever on a corpse.
Repair, maybe?

Nothing about it in the spell description.

Beside, a freshly deceased corpse's cells are still alive. The whole body is still full of life. It's just not working anymore.

Sure, but magic works on a holistic level. So by my way of seeing SR magic, as soon as you are all dead (as opposed to mostly dead) you cease to exist as the holistic being, and the fact that there are a billion individually persisting cells on a slab doesn't help, they no longer exist as a holistic being, or as a valid target for a healing spell.
As you say, the cells are still alive, and the cells may still be targeted (individually, as they now exist individually), but the holistic being is gone.
YMMV, of course. I'm not saying I'm absolutely right, it's just the way I understand SR magic.
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Charon
post Nov 29 2006, 09:40 PM
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The body still exist as a "holistic" being, just like a car.

And since the aura tends to linger on, I'd say the body itself still has the same aura it had as when alive though it will start to fade.

This may call for a dice penalty, but certainly not a whole new spell.

The spells target is P and it repairs injury. That's what it says.

Well, a freshly deceased corpse is physical and has injuries!

I think I can make a good case that this part would work. Now all that's needed are resuscitation rules.
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Moon-Hawk
post Nov 29 2006, 09:46 PM
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QUOTE (Charon)
The body still exist as a "holistic" being, just like a car.

And since the aura tends to linger on, I'd say the body itself still has the same aura it had as when alive though it will start to fade.

This may call for a dice penalty, but certainly not a whole new spell.

Hmm, perhaps. I would say that the aura leaves the moment the last overflow box is filled in. During the last box or two, the person's heart is not beating, they are not breathing, they are dead, but still resuscitatable. When the last box of overflow is gone, they either spend edge to escape certain death or their aura leaves.
But of course, I have no quote to back up exactly how long someone's aura lingers after they die.
I think it's really just a question of how you define dead, physical overflow, and healing. I'm not about to claim that the way you're handling it is wrong. My only claim is that my way eliminates the question you're having.
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Charon
post Nov 29 2006, 09:49 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
My only claim is that my way eliminates the question you're having.

It sure does. Which is why I going to handle your objection the Bush administration way.

I'm gonna pretend it doesn't exist.

*finger stuck in ears* La la la, I'm right, I'm always right!
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