House ruled gun skills, As reaction based. Options

[PlatonicPimp]

I've been thinking about moving the various gun skills (pistols, automatics, long arms, heavy weapons, gunnery) out of agility and into reaction as the linked attribute. My out of game logic being that hand-eye coordination and reaction time is more important to gunnery than your flexibility. In game, we're always noting how just about everything is linked to agility, and I'm thinking of spreading some of that around.

What effects do you think this would have on the game? Character design? is it a sound move from a logical perspective? A game balance perspective? What possible unforseen results are there to such a change?

[Jaid]

massive boosts to reaction are possible. far more so than agility.

for example, a human with reaction 3 could pick up wired 2 and reaction booster 2 for a total of +6 to reaction, putting them at their racial max. a dwarf with reaction 1 could get up to their racial max also.

also, it concerns me that the offensive and defensive attribute be the same. it results in anyone who's willing to blow a little nuyen becomes a master both offensively and defensively.

if that doesn't concern you, though, then go right ahead.

[Lord Ben]

Offense and defense being the same skill is the biggest boost. And it F's overy agility.

[PlatonicPimp]

We can say fuck. The word is in the main book.

Anyway, it's true that there are reaction boosters and the like. At the same time, there is no metahuman that gets a bonus to reaction. So top end dice pools go down a bit.

However, it's not just that offense and defense are now both based on reaction. Initiative is based on that too. So unless you are a melee fighter, all that would matter would be reaction. And that is pretty uber, maybe moreso than agility's current status. I can see that argument clearly.

Still, it seems weird that gunnery, of all things, is based on agility. It's the skill that governs firing vehicle mounted weapons through a computer interface, for goodness sake.

I feel dodge has more reason to be linked to agility than gun skills, though I like it based on reaction so I'm loathe to move it.

I know I'm not making a coherent argument here, I'm just brainstorming possibilities.

[Jack Kain]

Both reaction and agility are on some level hand-eye coordination. But reaction is reacting, in almost all cases reaction is rolled in responce to another effect.

Pilot is linked to reaction but you only roll your pilot skill when something goes wrong or you attempt to pull off some manuver.
You roll reaction to dodge gunfire or roll reaction + weapon skill to parry in melee.

Agility is more of the proactive side of hand eye coordination. Which is why its linked to some athletic skills.

As I understand it, in older SR quickness was used for both doding and attacking.
Reaction was a derived attribute. And as Fortune has pointed out to me worked much the same as it does now. Initiative, Quick Draw, and Vehicle Skills.


Lets look at other factors, not all gunshots are quick reactive encounters.
A careful snipershot or a gun on full auto isn't really a result of reaction. If your taking a few turns for take aim actions how does your reaction aid in that. Isn't that more of the

manual dexterity,flexibility, balance, and coordination in agility.
(according to the book thats agility)

Reaction is more Intuitive (which is why Intuition is your reaction in astral space) While Agility
involves more for thought. (which is why logic is your agility in astral space)

To me aiming is more thought then feeling. And concidering actions like take aim, called shot and accessories like smart link. Gunning is more thought then action.

What I'm saying is,
Both Agility and Reaction involve hand eye coordination.

This post has been edited by Jack Kain: Nov 30 2006, 08:01 AM

[Fortune]

[Jack Kain]

Reaction is linked to Vehicle skills, dodging, parrying and a key part of inititive.
When the stuff hits the fan reaction is a runners best friend. Wether escaping by car or dodging gunfire and the Giant Troll's combat axe that deals 10 physical.

Reaction puts the run in shadowrunner. With out a good reaction your armor is going to have to make a lot more resistence tests. Not to mention those nasty called shots to ignore armor.

[ShadowDragon]

Reaction is already important enough. I see no reason to boost it.

[PlatonicPimp]

All right then. It's out.

[Kyoto Kid]

[Jack Kain]

But then there'd be no reason to substitute would there.

2 types of dodging exist, proactive dodging which is actively bobbing and weaving whether your being attacked or not.
And reactive.
You see the gun being aimed so you dive out of the way, you see the axe coming at your head so you dodge out of the way.

Wait where does it say you can substitute gymnastics for dodge.

What would make sense is you use reaction for dodging normally but can use agility when going on full defense.

[FrankTrollman]

[Jack Kain]

Hey :D I just checked on the rules
You can only use gymnatstics for dodge when on full defense.

[lorechaser]

That's true.

But that's really irrelevant.

Because you're either in Melee, where you use your melee skill to parry, or in ranged.

In ranged, it's either pure reaction, or reaction + gym for full dodge.

So the only case where dodge is useful is someone with no melee skills.

Since gym applies outside of combat, it's a better choice.

[PlatonicPimp]

More In my head I recombine agilty and reaction into quickness agian, then divide it back into two stats, but different ones.

But you are right, if I'm being that picky, I'm really rewriting the roles from the ground up. If I were doing that, there'd be a dedicated perception stat (as opposed to intuition), and dodge would be based on it.

Oh well. I kinda knew it was a bad idea, otherwise I doubt I'd have asked anyone's opinion at all, self-righteous bastard I am.

[Garrowolf]

personally I have moved firearms types skills to a perception attribute in games that had that attribute. I did the same with archery.

I ran a version of SR3 but added Wits and Perception from WoD and it worked just fine. Wits was more of the reaction type thing and perception had to do with aimming and accuracy. If you got into melee range with a firearm it went to agility.

[ElFenrir]

I can see why someone would want to move stuff from Agility to Reaction...it does make some sense and Ive always been a one that thinks Agility is way too loaded.

And wait....im trying to remember...Agility boost is Toner 4 plus Superthyroid for +5.

But if i read it, Wired Reflexes add ONE per level, not 2 like in the old books...so enhancer 3, Wired 3, and Superthyroid would add +6 total. Which is more, but thats costing some hefty nuyen for those Alpha grade wired, and you aint getting much more after these three.

Don't worry, ive combed that skill list a lot and wanted to move around some skills, too. I still want to try the Melee to Strength method, but of course theres that problem with the trolls getting loads of dice and only dropping a couple of points into the skill. But i dunno why im a bit rubbed the wrong way about a stat being so loaded...something about it just bugs me a tiny bit.

I did, however, change Gunnery to Logic, as said in another thread. Im ALMOST wondering if that was an oversight in the original printing. I just dont see how, unless you are firing a gun manually off the top of a van, that calculating trajectory has anything to do with Agility whatsoever.

Funny thing is, speaking of Stat loading...Logic is the SECOND most loaded stat if you count them. Logic suffers a bit of dumping, but Logic seems loaded for the occupations that need it loaded. It's almost a given. That is a bit interesting...i guess the Agility loading bugs me more is because every blessed occupation uses it.

Body, Will, and Strength have the least...and Im still debating the use of Body and Parachuting...unless they mean 'it should be really high, your Body, if that chute doesnt open :grinbig:

[Fortune]

[ElFenrir]

[lorechaser]

[ElFenrir]

I dunno, Linked Attributes i guess could always cause a sort of problem.

SR3 had linked attributes...but they worked a different way(mainly for the cost of Skills). Combat skills could be enhanced by Combat Pool. Which basicallu meant any increases to Quickness, Intelligence, and/or Willpower would effect how much you kick butt in combat; as did of course, Quickness and Intelligence affecting Initative at the same time...which led to its own problems(ie, up Quickness and Intelligence to large levels and boom, you kick butt). It did have of course, can only add dice equal to skill level, which had folks want to up skills.

The benefit to this was upping the attributes didnt add DIRECTLY...you had to up two stats which were averaged for Init and Reaction, and three for Combat Pool. So stuff had to be spread.

With Linked, all you do is pump a couple of stats that have the bulk of the skills and youre set to go.

However, Linked have the advantage of a person not being forced to up a skill to high levels just to be good at it. Under the old system, someone with, say, a Car BR skill of 2 wasnt doing much except changing the spark plug, small odds and ends, until the TNs got too high. Only way to add dice was Task Pool which required cyberware, and even then, til the highest levels of ware, you didnt get a huge boost.

Linked attributes make dabbling in skills viable. A 2 in Auto Mechanic is just fine, with an average Logic you are still bound to get a couple of hits.

Some people say the Linked attributes making low skills viable is a bit of a problem...pump Attribute, get tons of skills at 2 and be good. I personally like being able to dabble a bit, even tho it has a price in the long run.

I can think of the example of my Adept. He had Unarmed Combat(Kickboxing) at 5(+2). His Agility was 4. 11 dice, he did the job well. in SR3 I think he had 5(7), and could roll up to 14 with Combat Pool. Yikes.

Another guy my friend made had a basic brawling skill of 2 or something...but his Agility was pumped to the gills. He rolled the same amount in SR4, where in SR3 his dice were limited to 4(6 if it was 3, i dont rememeber.)

I know its old hat but it still strikes me as odd.

Is there anything one can do to sort of 'level the playing field' here?

[PlatonicPimp]

Skill wise some attributes are loaded, but also note what non-skill related purposes many attributes have.

Reaction ups initiative. Strength lets you deal more damage in melee and carry more stuff. Body is what you use to resist most damages, willpower is what you use for the rest. Willpower is all about the Drain resistance.

Agility, on the other hand, is never used except as the linked attribute for a skill, as far as I can tell. I think that's why it gets more skills, because unlike other stats, it has no other use.

[Jack Kain]

The current system makes SR charaters more versatile.

As skills cap at six and attribtues easily go above 6 you have a problem with seting a limiter
The second is the defaulting rule. For most skills you can default at attribute -1 which makes sense. If you set a limit cap you also have to remove defaulting.

Lets look at the elf with charisma 7. He's really charming does it make sense he can only roll say 3 dice for having 1 rank in negotiation. People can be naturally very charming but never worked on any skills for it.

During creation attributes cost 10 BP per rank and skills cost 4. In karma its the new skillx2 and for attributes its the new rankx3
As they cost more then skills you should get more for them.

Trying to level the playing field is a bit tough. Say you rule the maximum amount of attribute you can add to a skill is equal to the rank. So agility 4 can only add 1 die to a rank 1 agility skill. You screw over the idea of having a attribute above 6.

Say you allow someone to add no more then twice there skill rank for the attribute. So someone with agility 8 could only add 4 dice to pistols rank 2. However if he defaulted he would roll more dice. And you still run into problems as Trolls can get physical stats up to 15.

You can argue that skills should be limited by attributes just as easily as attributes limited by skills.

Lets take the anicent Karate Master, he has rank 7 in matial arts speicalized in Shirn-Ryu For nine 9 dice. however at 90 years he has agility 1 and reaction of 1.
Does it make sense that he rolls 10 dice dispite the fact he can barly move? See it goes both ways.

An attribute above 6 is alot. Its superhuman. People with superhuman attributes should be able to make full use of there high stats.