So my mage wanted to turn the van invisible, How would you rule it? Options

[ShadowDragon]

In the last game I GMed for my group, the party mage wanted to turn the van he was riding in invisible to aid their escape from a persueing helicopter. He has improved invisibility, so I ruled on the fly that it would be possible with an arbitrary force 8 casting of the spell. I also ruled that it would be more difficult for the helicopter to follow (though not impossible because they had a mage with them) and imposed a -6 dice pool modifier on the rigger of the helicopter for contested driving checks, but at the same time, I increased the threashold of the van's driver by 1 because traffic wouldn't see him.

It feels like there are better options for this situation, but I'm not sure what. How would you rule it if you were GM?

[Lord Ben]

-2 driving checks. -1 doesn't seem enough. And frequently put up stop lights, if he stops for one then he WILL get rear ended.

Also, it just bends the light. So if the helicoptor has other types of sensors they'd work normally. Thermographic, ultrasound, radar, etc.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

By the RAW, thermographic cameras are ineffective against improved invisibility.

Radar, Ultrasound, tracking a commlink, etc. would work normally however - and should be well within the capabilities of the (presumably rigging) pilot of the police helicopter.

[Lord Ben]

Why would that be? Have a page #or know what section that's in?

At any rate the "rigger/pilot" of the helicoptor could just make a sensor test since they don't really specify what source it comes from. Give him -2 or whatever from the invis.

[hyzmarca]

If you make the van invisible then you make the van invisible. The people inside it, however, are obviously driving along in an invisible van unless you cast invisibility on them, as well. As area-effect version of invisibility is helpful for this if you allow custom spells.

Also, the spell has to overcome the OR of cameras or it fails against them. This means that you'll need about 4 hits.

[Moon-Hawk]

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

[Lovesmasher]

[ShadowDragon]

Just to clarify, I increased his THRESHOLDS by 1, I didn't lower his dice pool. So since the PC driver was trying to do a "break off" chase stunt, his threashold was 3 instead of 2. The helicopter had 6 less dice for the opening sequence for determining engagement range. Reference page 161.

As for the whole bending light debate, I considered making just the van invisible and the characters visible, but I didn't think that would make sense for the same reason why clothes/gear turn invisible on a person.

My real concern though, was putting a limit on the size of objects the spell can affect. Can a mage turn a building invisible next?

I was thinking of houseruling a threshold modifier based on the object and having it working similar to first aid - maybe people/animals have no modifier, drones have a threashold of 1, cars have a threshold of 2, larger vehicles have a threshold of 3, etc. Once a mage meets the threshold, remaining hits apply to resistance tests. What do you all think of that?

[Fortune]

Too late now, but just tell him next time to design an Area Effect version of the Spell. Then you'll have no problems determining just how large an area can be affected.

[hyzmarca]

Clothing and passengers are very different in respect to targeting. You can't target someone's clothes separate from the person with magic or with weapons. Choosing "I shoot his shirt" because his shirt can't dodge but he's always behind it and it has a low barrier rating is not a valid tactic. Likewise, choosing "I hide behind my shirt" is not a valid defense against being targeted by a manabolting mage. Worn clothes are considered to be part of the individual for the purposes of targeting and are effected by any spell targeted at the individual if possible (manabolts won't damage shirts but powerbolts will).

On the other hand, a passenger is not considered to be part of the vehicle. A direct combat spell targeted at a vehicle will never damage the passenger and a direct combat spell targeted at a passenger will not damage the vehicle.

[Lovesmasher]

[eidolon]

[Lord Ben]

I think in street magic there is a spell that turns vehicles invisible. I'd just have them use that instead of invisibility.

Increase the device rating based on the size and occupants too, that should do the trick.

[hyzmarca]

The limits and conventions of invisibility have always been a divisive issue.
One could interpret it other ways, but I prefer the flavor of this interpretation for reasons that can only be explained with this.

[Lovesmasher]

[Apathy]

Yeah, invisibility leads to so many wierd questions.

• If I have a kitten in my pocket when you cast invisibility on me, is the kitten affected?
• Does the kitten get to resist the spell? (being non-sapient, it can't be willing)
• How could the mage target the kitten at all, since he couldn't see it until after my jacket became invisible?
• What if I take the kitten out of my pocket and set it down? Is it still invisible then?
• The inverse question - what if I have an invisible backpack, and I start filling it with stuff that wasn't part of the original spell target. Are the new items visible through the backpack, or does the invisibility of the backpack cover the items inside until they're taken out?
• Can apply the same question to the kidnap victim stuffed into an invisible duffle bag, or thrown into the invisible van, or whatever.
• What if I'm tooling around in my invisible van and I roll down the window? Can people see into that part of the van now?

[ShadowDragon]

[FrankTrollman]

Casting spells on a non-living target requires you to meet the threshold of the object's OR before the spell takes effect. Observers of an indirect illusion get to make a success test against the net hits of the spell to see hrough it. Non-living "observers" such as cameras automatically see through such illusions unless get a number of net hits as their OR.

So if you cast improved invisibility on a van (OR 3), your first three hits don't count because you haven't achieved threshold. A Drone Observer has an OR of 4, so you'll need 4 net hits to fool one.

To get 4 net hits when making a human or a drop bear invisible you need 4 hits - which also means that you'll need to be throwing it at Force 7. To make your Van invisible with 4 net hits you'll need seven total hits because the casting threshold is now 3. That means you'll need to be casting it at Force 7. Vehicle Mask and Vehicle Invisibility have a substantially lower than normal Drain code because you need to cast them at a stupidly high Force anyway - the drain ends up being pretty normal.

-Frank

[eidolon]

[hyzmarca]

Vehicle Mask is a very restricted target and restricted effect version of Physical Mask (just look at the drain code). It isn't that Physical Mask won't work on vehicles, it will. The advantage is that Vehicle Mask has 3DV less drain than Physical Mask does.

Physical Mask is more versatile and will work on vehicles, but the +1DV drain is far less tempting than the -2DV drain is. By the same token, Slay elf will only slay elves, but manabolt will kill anything.

[Thyme Lost]

[Cheops]

[Big D]

What happens in the same case if you instead summon a Force 6 spirit and have it run Concealment on the van?

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

A force 6 spirit should be able to use its concealment power on 6 targets simultaneously - a van and up to 5 occupants should go without debate.