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> about the vindicator minigun, i'm confused...
kenny26
post Oct 26 2003, 10:07 PM
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when i first bought the canon companion, i was thrilled 2 see that they'd included the minigun in the statistics!

but then came the following dissapointment... the minigun fires 15 bullets/round, no more, no less, and it doesn't take barrel mounts!
so my question is: how on earth can this gun ever be fired with even the slightest chance of a hit???

the rules state that all uncompensated recoil modifiers are doubled when dealing with heavy weapons, and the minigun only takes a top and under barrel mount.
i've been through every piece of gear in the books, but there was no recoil compensating accesories that could be top barrel mounted. so my conclution was that you could only use one single recoil compensating accesory for the minigon (an under barrel mount), which makes it impossible to get a recoil comensation that would even make a difference!
you can't hit anything with this sucker! how can that be??? there must be some use for this weapon...

help, please...
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Bearclaw
post Oct 26 2003, 10:09 PM
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The way the SR system applies recoil to the entire burst makes it useless. Sorry, it's just a problem with the game mechanic.
On the otherhand, wouldn't it be a huge pain in the butt to roll the first bullet, then, add 2 to the TN and roll the second bullet, then add 2 more and roll the third bullet, etc etc etc?
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Buzzed
post Oct 26 2003, 10:10 PM
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A foregrip can be top mounted. Then again, It already has a top grip, so the only time in which it could be used would be with an articulated arm.

Gyro units seem like the most logical way of handling the minigun. If you can get a Troll with a strength of 19, you get an extra -3 recoil comp. SO, cyberarm(19 strength = -3 recoil) + maxgyro (-7 recoil) That gives you 10 points of recoil comp right there. Only 5 more to go.

5 more points lets see.

Articulated arm + foregrip = Hmm the rules dont say you can use an articulated arm for recoil stabalizing on anything larger then a light machine gun. Let me direct you to the picture on page 34 of the CC. What is that I see? An articulated arm gripping a forgrip on the assault cannon?

Hmm lets look at teh other options.

Hip pads. 1 point.

How about mounting it onto a vehicle? :eek:
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kenny26
post Oct 26 2003, 10:15 PM
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well, i was sort'a hoping for some good advice on how to change these follish game mechanics (at least make an exception for the minigun).

and a foregrip only gives 1 point of RC, so it makes virtually no difference (but thanks for pointing it out anyway).
so with a max gyro, a foregrip and a troll's strength, you can muster a total of 9 points of RC, with the remaining 6 to be doubled...
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Mephisto
post Oct 26 2003, 10:17 PM
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Use supressive fire...
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Siege
post Oct 26 2003, 10:22 PM
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Although the "no barrel accessories" makes a certain amount of sense...

-Siege
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kenny26
post Oct 26 2003, 10:22 PM
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well, my point is that a minigun kicks major @$$, correct?
but the game mechanics don't display this quallity of the weapon, so i'm looking for creative solutions to make it a more respectable weapon in combat (like it's supposd to be).
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Buzzed
post Oct 26 2003, 10:26 PM
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I guess you could have barrel mounts, as long as you get 6 of them.... And it would be heavy, 6X the weight. Canon seems reasonable though.
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Digital Heroin
post Oct 26 2003, 10:26 PM
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Two words: Gyro Stabalization

Next thing you're going to ask to be ableo to run around with it in on hand, and a coffin in the other like the Governator... it's meant to be a big nasty pain in the ass to use my friend, but a gyro harness'll help ease the pain... :D
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Siege
post Oct 26 2003, 10:27 PM
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I think the general concensus was the man-portable minigun is a fun toy, but really (really) impractical from a logistics point of view.

The amount of ammo you have to haul around makes it logistically complicated (never mind "Predator").

The weight and while I can't speak to the recoil never having fired one before, I would imagine it proves difficult for a large majority of troops.

The anti-vehicle role it's designed to play can be accomplished better by other weapons.

You might ask Ray for a more informed opinion on the viability of the thing.

-Siege
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El_Machinae
post Oct 26 2003, 10:29 PM
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If you hose multiple targets, then you will have a chance of hitting the first few you shoot at.

As well, can't you mount it on a vehicle? I was under the impression that vehicle mounting was a superior way of reducing recoil.
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kenny26
post Oct 26 2003, 10:30 PM
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i've already mentioned the gyro stabilisation unit, and it doesn't give much recoil compensation compared to the weapons huge firing rate....
that is unless i've overlooked some aspect of the gyro mount... :please:

and i'm not asking for much. in fact, all i'm asking for is to reduce the recoil at any costs. i don't care if the gun has to be mounted on a tank, just as long as it can actually be considered useful in any given combat situation, like all the other weapons in SR...

but i liked the idea buzzed came up with.
and also, i had forgotten that you could spread the rain of bullets among several targets. but still, this doesn't set the weapon much apart in power than so many other cheaper weapons.

and finally, El_Machinae, i've checked the possibilities of mounting one on a vehicle, and the best result is to have the recoil halfed, which still leaves 7 points uncompensated (and i don't think it's plausible to make use of a vehicle mount and a gyro unti at the same time).
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Buzzed
post Oct 26 2003, 10:41 PM
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Become a rigger and use a drone that you use for legs and stabalizing while you fire at things. A combat wheelchair for miniguns if you will.

Hmm, a mobilized version of the Max-gyro, that moves with you like a 3rd leg on a wheel, to eliminate the movement penalty. :love: SOTA is calling it's name.
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John Campbell
post Oct 26 2003, 11:00 PM
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QUOTE (kenny26)
and finally, El_Machinae, i've checked the possibilities of mounting one on a vehicle, and the best result is to have the recoil halfed, which still leaves 7 points uncompensated (and i don't think it's plausible to make use of a vehicle mount and a gyro unti at the same time).

You can put up to nine points of recoil adjustment on a vehicle hardpoint. The hardpoint also halves recoil, so that should be quite sufficient.

And remember, the guy in Predator fired the thing dry without actually doing anything but shredding some foliage...
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Backgammon
post Oct 26 2003, 11:10 PM
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Actually, if I'm not mistaken, a minigun is a heavy weapon, and as such suffers 2X uncompensated recoil. So sticking it on a vehicule still leaves you with +15 modifier. Otherwise, you're looking at +30. Fun, neh?
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El_Machinae
post Oct 26 2003, 11:54 PM
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I'm pretty sure the 2x recoil for heavy weapons is only a factor if the weapon isn't on a tripod or mounted on a vehicle.
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Cray74
post Oct 27 2003, 12:14 AM
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QUOTE (Bearclaw)
The way the SR system applies recoil to the entire burst makes it useless. Sorry, it's just a problem with the game mechanic.

Just use suppressive fire rules. 15 rounds are great for suppressive fire, especially when they have more punch than Supermachs.
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Lilt
post Oct 27 2003, 12:16 AM
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Max Gyro (7) + Troll Str (3) + Foregrip (1) + Hip pad (1)

Where exactly do people say that it already has a foregrip? Am I missing something?

Anyway: with this setup you could quite easily spit out two 16D bursts (on TNs 2 and 4 if you count a smartlink) and let the other three bullets fly wild. You don't have to shoot all the bullets at the same target, you don't even need to shoot all of the bullets at targets. Say you're aiming to get the first 9 on one target and you don't care about the rest; 21D is definately nasty and possible for the meager sum of 30:nuyen: in bullets.

Suppressive Fire is also your friend.
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Tziluthi
post Oct 27 2003, 01:44 AM
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I don't think that you can fire the minigun in bursts. It's all or nothing.
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mfb
post Oct 27 2003, 01:53 AM
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mounting a weapon on a vehicle negates the double uncomp recoil mod for heavy weapons, according to R3. if you're silly enough to want to lug it around on foot, i'd reccomend an advanced gyromount (7 RC), a cyberarm gyro (3 RC), hip pads (1 RC), barrel weight (1 RC), and high strength (1-3 RC). this should easily be sufficient.

if you're looking for alternate autofire rules, try this: calculate the TN without recoil mods. then, subtract the full recoil mod from the highest die you rolled, and add the amount of recoil compensation. this tells you how many rounds struck the target (up to the number fired); adjust the damage level accordingly, then stage according to how many of the highest die you rolled.

for instance, if i fire a full-auto burst from an AK-97 with 4 skill and 4 RC, i might roll a 4, a 2, an 8, and an 8 (lucky shot!). 8 is my highest roll; from it, i subtract the full recoil (10 rounds, 10 points of recoil) and come up with -2. then, i add my recoil comp of 4, and come up with 2. therefore, 2 rounds have hit the target; my burst does 10M damage, staged up by successes to 10S.
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252
post Oct 27 2003, 02:14 AM
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You can use the optional rule for trace fire with the gun. Which makes it a suporior hitting tool.

You can mount it on a tripod.

I think it might be possible to apply both a tripod and the gyro stabilizer to the thing as well. I mean using the gyro stabilizer as a top mounted accessory, I see the thing as a surrounding the entire weapon accessory from most pictures and the game calls it a bottom, so I don't know why you couldn't possibly reverse it. It works on gyroscopic motion so being above shouldn't be hard to configure correctly for the weapon, it is not like it works on gravition or some such thing. I guess it is the GMs decision.

Next as people have been saying suppressive fire.

For those that want to know a bit about suppressive fire and searching fire I refer to you to cannon companion pg 106, 107 and103 respectively.

Note: Though I understand some of the physics behind it I'm not pretending or trying to make anyone believe that I have actually used firearms in anyway. Thus I am not a great authority on these matters.
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mfb
post Oct 27 2003, 02:18 AM
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yeah, tracers are also a big help. -1 TN per 3 rounds fired. you can also use phosphorus ammo, to make up for the lower damage of tracer rounds. nasty, those.
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Cain
post Oct 27 2003, 02:20 AM
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You're all forgetting about the supressive fire rules. Recoil doesn't matter on that, nor does skill. All that matters is how much ammo you can send downrange, and the miniguns are very good at that.
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mfb
post Oct 27 2003, 02:32 AM
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skill matters somewhat. after all, you still have to roll, and at +2 TN; even at short range, you still need some skill to hit anything.
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Lilt
post Oct 27 2003, 10:32 AM
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MFB's system is interesting, but it makes it even less likely that you are going to hit with more than one bullet when unloading large amounts of lead at a target.

I like the idea of using the highest die rolled as this is something ignored in most SR tests. If I'm GMing and a player rolls 6 after 6 after 6 then it feels a bit of a shame to let the roll go to waste. I'd usually just tell them they look particularily cool while they do whatever it is.
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