 Confusion |
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 Dec 7 2006, 12:41 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042  |
I suppose I'm not the first guy to notice that sustaining a critter power inccurs no negative DP mod for a spirit.
So with a complex action a spirit can use it's Confusion power on a target to inflict die loss, then proceed to whallop the target stupid in melee combat. |
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Dec 7 2006, 01:39 AM
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#2
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Target Group: Members Posts: 99 Joined: 20-February 06 From: Media PA Member No.: 8,288 |
The spirit wouldnt be able to wallop but someone or thing else could
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Dec 7 2006, 01:46 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 271 Joined: 18-April 06 Member No.: 8,481 |
Yes, it would... not in the same pass though of course because it's used its complex action.
Sustained spirit powers don't adversely affect the spirit at all. Yup, it's nasty. Of course, the strongest spirits like earth and fire don't have that power IIRC, it's more just something to make the ones with weaker stats more effective in combat. |
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Dec 7 2006, 01:51 AM
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#4
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Target Group: Members Posts: 99 Joined: 20-February 06 From: Media PA Member No.: 8,288 |
sorry i didnt have my book i retract my statement.
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Dec 7 2006, 03:01 AM
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#5
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Whupping on an opponent in melee is also a complex action. So you have the option of either giving a dice pool penalty or whupping on your opponent each initiative pass.
Usually you'd be able to come up with comparable dicepool penalties just by hitting someone with a fire bolt. I actually find Confusion pretty underwhelming. -Frank |
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Dec 7 2006, 03:37 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
One use I have used it for that I lke...
Punching through Coutnerspelling. Counterspelling doesnt help against powers, so its magic+willpoer versus willpower each hit takes off from counterspelling (among other things). Mage then firebolts confused and magically defensless mage. All told it is only good in certain circumstances. Like frank mentions usually the most effective penalty dice are just wound modiferes :-) |
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Dec 7 2006, 04:59 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
Frank, that's not correct. It takes a complex action to activate the power, and then it can be sustained indefinitely without any penalty for the spirit. So the spirit can activate Confusion, then make melee attacks in subsequent passes.
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Dec 7 2006, 06:46 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
And by the way, Confusion is Magic + Willpower vs. Willpower, with each net hit inflicting -1 dp to any action the character takes. So all you need is one net hit to start adversely affecting the target. Damage, on the other hand, requires three points to be inflicted before the target starts suffering modifiers. And damage is resisted by Body + Armor, if not a dodge roll, too, not just Willpower.
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Dec 7 2006, 09:22 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 116 Joined: 3-January 05 Member No.: 6,925 |
Two solutions: One, make target's Willpower a Threshhold, rather than an opposed roll. Two, make it resisted by Composure rather than just Willpower. With either or neither of these solutions, you could also require two net hits per point of penalty.
What I'm worried about are three things: One, line of sight doesn't have to be maintained after the critter hits the target, two, I don't see any rules limiting the number of different critters who can stack the same power on the target, and three, the critter can sustain indefinitely according to the rules as written. "So I was walking through this creepy forest a couple months ago, and ever since then, I haven't been able to do anything right..." |
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Dec 7 2006, 09:39 PM
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#10
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
What's the part that's not correct? If a spirit could hit you with Confusion, they could hit you with Elemental Attack. Let's consider the prospect of being hit with the Confusion effect of a Force 6 spirit. We're doing this because it's easily divisble by 3 and makes for nice round numbers. In that spirit, we are going to assume that the target happens to have all attributes of 3 and 6 points of armor because that's also all divisible by 3. It has a dicepool of 12, so it get 4 hits. You resist with your puny Willpower of 3, and suffer a dicepool penalty of -3 on actions. Holy crap, that sucks! Or hey, it could hit you with Elemental Attack instead, frying you with a Lightning Bolt of pure hostility. It still gets 4 hits and you dodge with your Reaction of 3 and only get 1. Now you have to resist 9P damage with your Body of 3 and half your armor and get 2 hits. So you take 7 physical damage setting you up for a -2 or -3 penalty and an additional -2 penalty to all actions for 5 rounds (and rolls 9 dice against a threshold of 3 or gets incapacitated). So who gives a crap? Yeah, you can give some guy a -3 penalty. Or you could nearly kill him with a lightning bolt and give them a bigger penalty at the same time! Confusion is a weak attack, it's not even useful in combat - you're using it because it doesn't harm the victim in the long run and you can drop someone down in a non-lethal, non-permanent fashion. It's good in particular circumstances, but nailing enemies is something that Elemental Attack is better at. -Frank |
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Dec 7 2006, 10:01 PM
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#11
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
There's a question I wouldn't have minded being answered in the FAQ. Does the Lightning Bolt Spell (or Ability) actually do Physical damage? Or does it qualify as Stun damage, as all other Electrical damage seems to be in SR4? There has been quite a lot of talk and confusion on this subject. |
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Dec 8 2006, 05:00 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
Lighning bolt does physical damage, not stun. If it did stun then it would list the damage type as S and it would have a lower drain value then the other elemental combat spells. The electrical damagae part has to do with it bypassing half the impact armor.
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Dec 8 2006, 05:03 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 870 Joined: 2-October 06 From: Athens Ga Member No.: 9,517 |
Noneuclid, you should probably house rule it. I wouldn't limit the number of spirits that can attack the same target. I would give them some sort of sustaining penalty. Maybe have it increase over time. I would also limit their range or how long they can sustain things while out of los. This would probably help for your game.
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Dec 8 2006, 08:26 AM
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#14
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I have heard all the arguments, and even made reference to them in my post. My point was not to open up a discussion on the topic, but to lament that a much-discussed and seemingly confusing (although maybe not to you, or even to me) issue was not covered in the FAQ. |
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Dec 8 2006, 09:28 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Well keep in mind there is still I'm pretty sure a maxium range on sustained abilities, even if it's not LOS. So unless the poor guy was beign followed around I'm pretty sure it would wear off once he got out of the critters range. I could of course be totally wrong, but I certainly would at the very least HR something like that otherwise it could be abused to no end. |
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Dec 8 2006, 07:16 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Nailing enemies with relatively equal stats across the board and normal levels of armor is something Elemental Attack is better at. You're much better off confusing the Troll tank than Elemental Attacking. He doesn't have 3's across the board and 6 armor. He has 9 body, 12 armor (Armor Jacket + Dermal 2 + trollishness + Helmet) and ignores 2 boxes of pain. Granted, you could call that a particular circumstance, but in pretty much every group, there's going to be a high body and armor, low will-power person. If you're facing runners, one of them probably has pain editors, or some such too. I'm also unsure how much obvious effect confusion has. I'm pretty vague on SR4 spirit rules, but does someone even know if they're confused? I could easily see the mage sending in the spirit to confuse someone, *then* launch the elemental attack at the same time the party hits them, for stacking bonuses, but like I said, I don't know how that would work. |
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Dec 8 2006, 07:35 PM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
or you could just manabolt/stunbolt the troll. the point remains, it just requires a different attack. |
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