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Xenith View Member Profile	Dec 7 2006, 08:02 PM Post #101
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361	If its not Cyberpunk (which it is, since the focus on hacking is still there, a major theme of almost every cyberpunk in existence), then its Manapunk. Still Punk, still dystopian. So Gibson can fuck off. He wasn't even really the first cyberpunk writer, he just got famous for it. Goddamn whiner.

Abbandon View Member Profile	Dec 7 2006, 08:19 PM Post #102
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,711 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,716	They missed my most wanted cyber question. What is needed for a proper skinlink connection that allows two way communication with the cyber/device your are connected to. gun w/ skinlink -> body -> glasses w/ skinlink(or cybereyes) gun w/ skinlink -> body -> datajack -> glasses/cybereyes Do i need a datajack to be able tell my gun to eject a clip? What if i have my motorcycle skinlinked, do i have to have a datajack to tell it to start ?

FrankTrollman

Dec 7 2006, 08:20 PM

Post #103

Prime Runner

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The specific quote by William Gibson is:

QUOTE (William Gibson)

SHADOWRUN: GAG ME WITH A SPOON

No relationship. No permission. Nothing. Nary a word exchanged, ever.

Except that the admixture of cyberspace and, spare me, *elves*, has always been more than I could bear to think about.

Uh huh. I was personally unaware that we had to give William Gibson permission to use the word "cyberspace" (which Gibson may have coined) when we actually call it "the Matrix" as envisioned in Dreams of Flesh and Sand by W. T. Quick. Also, I didn'tknow that we had to give Gibson anything for using the term Cyberpunk which was from a book of the same name by Bruce Bethke some years before Neuromancer was written.

Really, William Gibson typed on a fucking typewriter all the way through that series so he can take his high-tech prophet status and shove it up his ass.

We never said a word to Gibson and never received a word of permission from him because we don't owe him anything. You don't need Gibson's stamp of approval to make cyberpunk. In fact, I would suggest that you avoid doing so.

-Frank

Lodestar_77 View Member Profile	Dec 7 2006, 08:28 PM Post #104
Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 24-November 06 Member No.: 9,982	I have been visiting the forums for the latest gme by Shadowrun and of course it has its SR detractors but one of them said not only was this new video game not Shadowrun (I heartily agree there) but neither was 4th edition. And two posters agreeing with him. I have yet to buy 4th edition yet but I am wondering what it is that old Shadowrun fans are not liking about this 4th edition. Can anyone tell me?

Lovesmasher

Dec 7 2006, 08:28 PM

Post #105

Moving Target

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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

The specific quote by William Gibson is:

QUOTE (William Gibson)

SHADOWRUN: GAG ME WITH A SPOON

No relationship. No permission. Nothing. Nary a word exchanged, ever.

Except that the admixture of cyberspace and, spare me, *elves*, has always been more than I could bear to think about.

Uh huh. I was personally unaware that we had to give William Gibson permission to use the word "cyberspace" (which Gibson may have coined) when we actually call it "the Matrix" as envisioned in Dreams of Flesh and Sand by W. T. Quick. Also, I didn'tknow that we had to give Gibson anything for using the term Cyberpunk which was from a book of the same name by Bruce Bethke some years before Neuromancer was written.

Really, William Gibson typed on a fucking typewriter all the way through that series so he can take his high-tech prophet status and shove it up his ass.

We never said a word to Gibson and never received a word of permission from him because we don't owe him anything. You don't need Gibson's stamp of approval to make cyberpunk. In fact, I would suggest that you avoid doing so.

-Frank

I think anyone who writes genre fiction and thinks of themselves as both a pioneer and an innovator is a douche. Humility is the sign of a well read author.

I want to see Warren Ellis (who I think has a healthy view on other writers, dickish as he may be) fight William Gibson. Writing about dystopian futures is about drawing upon the culture and history of the human race as a whole. That includes other past writers, even those who stopped being relevant years ago.

Rotbart van Dain... Rotbart van Dainig View Member Profile	Dec 7 2006, 08:29 PM Post #106
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951	Let's just say that SR is very directly inspired in descriptions and setting by Neuromancer... Today, Cyberpunk as a genre is pretty much gone and merged into scifi mainstream, so it's not a really bad thing that SR doesn't claim nor try to be CP.

Lovesmasher

Dec 7 2006, 08:29 PM

Post #107

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Lodestar_77)

I have been visiting the forums for the latest gme by Shadowrun and of course it has its SR detractors but one of them said not only was this new video game not Shadowrun (I heartily agree there) but neither was 4th edition. And two posters agreeing with him.

I have yet to buy 4th edition yet but I am wondering what it is that old Shadowrun fans are not liking about this 4th edition. Can anyone tell me?

As someone who tried to play Shadowrun in Highschool and quickly tossed it to the wayside only to pick it up again now, I can say that they must hate how easy and sensible things are now :-P

Dissonance View Member Profile	Dec 7 2006, 08:37 PM Post #108
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992	People will always complain about something new. There'll be a fury and shitstorm for the next few months or years, but eventually, once most of the core books are out, people will settle down about the SR3 vs SR4 argument, and go back to what they were doing before SR4 came out. That is, screaming over nuances of the current edition. As for the Shadowrun game that's coming out for the Xbox 360 and the PC? People are complaining about that, because Shadowrun has had a pretty notoriously bad run of video games in the past. While the Genesis one was pretty true to the source material, the SNES one was pretty much as far removed from the source, while still retaining the lingo and a few very basic tenents. The problem that most people seem to have with the Shadowrun shooter that's coming out is that, well. Aside from being a shooter instead of an RPG, the magic violates canon that's been set up from the very start of the game. No teleportation. No resurrection. I don't know if it's going to be a good game or not. I'll certainly give it a try. And it might even serve as a gateway drug from the shooter to the paper and pencil RPG. But, really, it's kind of distanced from what we nerds consider to be wholesome and canon.

Xenith View Member Profile	Dec 7 2006, 08:51 PM Post #109
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361	Looks terrible. Just another Halo clone. While fun, Halo is a bit overrated at this point. Unreal did it better.

Rotbart van Dain... Rotbart van Dainig View Member Profile	Dec 7 2006, 08:55 PM Post #110
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951	That's what happens to games µ$ gets their hands on. Oni was fun...

MYST1C

Dec 7 2006, 08:56 PM

Post #111

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Dissonance)

The problem that most people seem to have with the Shadowrun shooter that's coming out is that, well. Aside from being a shooter instead of an RPG, the magic violates canon that's been set up from the very start of the game. No teleportation. No resurrection.

Plus, there's a new setting (never before heard of city in South America).
Plus, the game is set in 2021 but has adult elves (and likely dwarves).
Plus, trolls look different than in the RPG.
Plus, there's a new corporation, "RNA Global".
Plus, there's an Immortal Elves-run underground group called "The Lineage".
Plus, the way magic returned to the world (with powerful artifacts and buildings/citadels appearing out of thin air) doesn't fit canon.

Adam View Member Profile	Dec 7 2006, 08:57 PM Post #112
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51	This is an Admin post: Discussions of the Shadowrun Computer Game are not relevant to this thread. Discussions of SR4 vs SR3 or any previous edition are not relevant to this thread. This thread has some very contentious points, so keep it on topic and polite -- personal attacks, even if you put a smiley behind them -- are not welcome.

Lodestar_77 View Member Profile	Dec 7 2006, 08:58 PM Post #113
Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 24-November 06 Member No.: 9,982	Yes well A quick visit Here and you will see a great deal of info and objection to the new microsoft game and some of it my own. Appologies Adam I was not at all trying to start a discussion in any way about the upcoming game. I merely relayed where I saw objections about the new 4th edition rules. On my second point of 3rd vs 4th edition I was wondering what the common complaints were. But I didnt realise that they were not allowed in this thread so sorry Adam and chummers.

FrankTrollman

Dec 7 2006, 09:14 PM

Post #114

Prime Runner

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QUOTE

In my opinion SR 3 freatly expanded the existing rules of 2nd ed so I wondered what issues were with 4th ed. I mean has anything been dropped?

Hoah boy. There are really long discussions about this all over the place But here's a short list of the needs-to-know:

The basic die mechanic is different and more consistently applied throughout the game. You roll Attribute + Skill + Modifiers for just about everything, rather than Skill with or without adding dice from a dicepool derived from a couple of your attributes averaged together.
Your target number is always 5 and difficulty is handled by requiring more successes rather than asking players to get one success against an increasingly difficult target number. This results in a difference in what can be accomplished by a skilled individual and an unskilled individual larger, and also involves half as many GM/Player questions to determine the results of an action.
Bio Index is gone. Bioware costs Essence, but the new Essence calculations and costs are a lot more generous - so players can have about the same (or more) ware, but there are less ware subsystems to keep track of.
There are 10 types of spirits in the game, and all traditions summon 5 of them with the same rules. So a Water Elemental and a Nymph use the same game mechanics. This makes traditions more similar, but also means that the magic book and the basic book together have over twenty traditions in them instead of only five.

That's a brief overview, for more detail go to one of the many SR3 v SR4 threads. This is the first edition that amounts to more than a set of house rules on the previous edition. It's a genuinely new edition that's very different. With such a significant break from the past, it is no surprise that SR4 has more zealots and more angry detractors than SR3 or SR2 did.

Honestly, SR3 could have been called SR2.5 and SR2 could have been called SR1.5 - SR4 is not SR3.5 - not even close.

-Frank

Fortune

Dec 7 2006, 09:44 PM

Post #115

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

Honestly, SR3 could have been called SR2.5 and SR2 could have been called SR1.5 - SR4 is not SR3.5 - not even close.

What he said!

So Frank (or Synner), who did make the call on Reaction Enhancers? Were you privy to their reasoning?

Chandon View Member Profile	Dec 7 2006, 10:02 PM Post #116
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 261 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Massachusetts Member No.: 2,115	Given the attribute cap, and given the fact that there needs to be design space for Move By Wire (or whatever) to be really good in Augmentation, it makes a lot of sense to prevent people from maxing out their reaction score at character generation.

Smed View Member Profile	Dec 7 2006, 10:05 PM Post #117
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 248 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Note Calonna Member No.: 241	Yeah, SR3 and SR4 are totally independent games that happen to have a similar setting. Looking forward to trying out the stuff in the FAQ. Most of it seems like nice clarifications.

DireRadiant

Dec 7 2006, 10:07 PM

Post #118

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QUOTE (Abbandon)

They missed my most wanted cyber question.

What is needed for a proper skinlink connection that allows two way communication with the cyber/device your are connected to.

gun w/ skinlink -> body -> glasses w/ skinlink(or cybereyes)
gun w/ skinlink -> body -> datajack -> glasses/cybereyes

Do i need a datajack to be able tell my gun to eject a clip? What if i have my motorcycle skinlinked, do i have to have a datajack to tell it to start ?

Skinlinks are like wires. They do what a wire does. It just uses your skin. Turns your skin into wire!

To tell a skinlinked gun to eject the clip, you need something to take whatever you are thinking and have that communicate through the wire|Skinlink to the device. So to give mental commands you need something with DNI, whether through Trodes, datajack or some other implanted device.

Konsaki View Member Profile	Dec 7 2006, 10:27 PM Post #119
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445	Now that the devs have made AR more favorable than VR, what can be done to make VR the better option again? Also, did the devs even think about how their choice would impact the game world?

knasser

Dec 7 2006, 10:29 PM

Post #120

Shadow Cartographer

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QUOTE (Lantzer @ Dec 7 2006, 05:39 PM)

QUOTE (James McMurray)

QUOTE (knasser @ Dec 7 2006, 10:20 AM)

A GM can limit cash-developing characters like samurai if he wishes, but can barely slow down the karma developers, like mages, making imbalances appear rapidly in low-power games.

Are you saying the GM has control over how much money he gives out but not karma?

I think his point is that Money comes, and Money goes, but Karma keeps building. Karma is sneaky that way.

And he's right. A lot of GM's keep a closer grip on the cash flow than the karma flow. I'm guilty of it myself, and I love cyber.

Part of the problem is that to upgrade Cyber is very expensive, traditionally. Upgrading your basic cyber to alpha ware, or your alphaware to betaware, or god forbid bioware, just so you can squeeze in a fraction more capability, requires enough cash outlay to fully kit out several other members of your team with top of the line non-cyber gear of all types.

I've been playing around with the system, and looking at characters people have posted:

Who are you more likely to see at character generation with bioware initiative boosts (Adept or Sam)? Answer: Adept, as far as I can tell.

The Sam is more likely to go with wired for financial reasons in character generation - he wants more than 1 piece of cyber, if he considers himself a street samurai. The adept on the other hand has much fewer finanial obligations and the bioware is a signiicant power point discount over his own way of handling initiative boosts.

Now, how likely is it for the Sam to get that nice bioware upgrade to the tune of a quarter-million-plus nuyen in game? This is the worst case scenario... but this is what the samurai's equivalent of initiation is. Magical types continuously build up with karma, and eventually initiate - usually as soon as possible. Cyber types have a harder time upgrading.

Because if the team has gotten enough money that the cyber-folks can upgrade at all, what have the other members of the team done with that huge amount of money? We are talking about tens to hundreds of thousands of bucks here.

Anyway, enough ranting. to answer your question:

In theory, no. In practice, yes. For it to work in practice, he'd have to cut back karma awards severely over the long term, or increase cash awards past what might seem reasonable based on the finances of the other characters.

Possible the best idea is to implement a cash <-> karma system, with oversight, of course.

Well Lantzer has put it all very much better than I would have. I was just going to reply 'yes' :)

Thanee

Dec 7 2006, 10:35 PM

Post #121

jacked in

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So, what are Reaction Enhancers supposed to be compatible with then? ;)

QUOTE

Reaction enhancers are compatible with other Initiative-boosters.

Bye
Thanee

Xenith View Member Profile	Dec 7 2006, 10:40 PM Post #122
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361	VR is more anonymous for one thing, plus you move faster (unless you crack your hacker out with int enchancers and then shame on you! XD ) in VR and in Hot SIM you do things better... enough to make an obvious difference. AR is by no means universally more desirable than VR.... the hackers I have in my campaigns do it all the time (almost every time they want to hack). It all depends on your needs, whatever they might be.

mfb

Dec 7 2006, 10:41 PM

Post #123

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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

We never said a word to Gibson and never received a word of permission from him because we don't owe him anything. You don't need Gibson's stamp of approval to make cyberpunk. In fact, I would suggest that you avoid doing so.

i definitely agree. however, it's also true that SR took more than just inspiration from Neuromancer.

Xenith View Member Profile	Dec 7 2006, 10:44 PM Post #124
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361	Who seems to have done the same to a number of other earlier cyberpunk writers. Its funny how similar some personalities and plot lines can be don't you think? My point is that its a GENRE. OF course there will be huge similarities. And Gibson does not have a patent monopoly on cyberpunk.

mfb View Member Profile	Dec 7 2006, 10:47 PM Post #125
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	you'll have to explain what you're referring to. i'm not aware of any source Gibson ripped off to anywhere near the same degree that SR originally did him.

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