 FAQ Has Arrived, ... Get your 4th encounter here |
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 Dec 8 2006, 03:15 AM
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#151
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 18-September 05 Member No.: 7,758  |
I'm sorry, did I miss the part of the FAQ where the 'default' roll for hacking without a program was defined? The FAQ states: "In most circumstances, you will be using Computer/Hacking + program rating. In cases where a program would apply, but isn't available, the character must default." and then proceeds to list a bunch of examples of what you can do with skill + attribute. Now, I am a perfectly able reader, and know that the examples given below do not specifically reference defaulting without programs. But hey, if they did, I wouldn't have needed that question mark in my post, now would I? Skill + Attribute pools, however, are the only pools mentioned other than Program + Skill pools... so when I'm looking for a possible explanation of what a 'default' roll is for hacking, Skill + Attribute is kind of high on my list of suspects. |
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Dec 8 2006, 03:58 AM
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#152
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 500 Joined: 4-September 06 From: Salt Lake UT Member No.: 9,299 |
@ lorechaser
I don't dislike magic. I don't dislike elves that doesn't mean I'm ever going to play one when I'm not sitting in the GM chair but I don't hate either. I really really like the setting magic. I like Dragons, I like Immortal elves, I like the idea of the 4th 5th and 6th world. I like shedim spirits. I like shooting shape shifters watching them get up, terrifying my character and shooting them again and again and again. I like doing that to elves too but they don't get up and frankly there is no such thing as a scary keeb. I hate... Hate, did you hear me I said HATE. the idea that SR will become more "magicy" (I hope I never see that word again.) I hate the idea because it's true. Shadowrun will become more magic oriented. But not because it needs distinct identity. Let me explain why magic orientation will over run the game until it has no cyberpunk identity at all. Shadow run rules (I refer you to my sig about rules) are designed to arbitrate three universes. The Physical, the Virtual, and the metaphysical twinkness we dub the astral. In the case of the first two universes shadowrun rules arbitrate THE actual and real rules that people live with. I'm talking about gravity. I'm talking about electromagnetism. In the third case shadowrun rules arbitrate NOTHING. That's right, the astral plane and metaphysics don't exist. The shadow run rules attempt to arbitrate the infinite and wacky realm of the imagination unbounded by any common reference or limitation. When you develop a game you are making rules. You're not making rules to establish the possible and the probable. You're making rules to establish the degree of IMPROBABILITY and the IMPOSSIBLE. Asking what am I capable of what can I do in this setting is the domain of the player. The developer/writer ought to be asking "Why can't this be done. Why shouldn't this happen? Why not?" then the developer/writer uses rules to provide answers to those questions. Here's an example: Have you ever heard of the proposal someone made for a piece of gear called 'Cyber Wings? They were little piezioelectric feathers that extrude out of the arms of a character. When the character flapped his arms real hard making a Agility + pilot exotic vehicle (3) test he could fly at his racial running speed. No you haven't heard of cyber wings because no one who plays shadowrun is that f'ing stupid. Intuitively you know that no one shaped like a human who weighs 150 pounds cannot fly by flapping his arms regardless of the inclusion of cool words like piezioelectric. Further, you probably know that people too dumb to play shadowrun have allready tried failed and died in RL. Everyone knows that gravity works. So, have you ever heard of levitation? Of course! You play shadowrun. Levitation is cool. Every fifth character you play can levitate. Gravity doesn't work. Why not? (psst. there is no answer) The point is that development of cyberware and the matrix is naturally limited by common F'ing sense engendered in the writers by human experience and scientific knowledge. There is no such thing as common sense when the mind of a writer starts meandering around magic. That's why it's called Fantasy. That's why magic rules are a bunch of nonsensical crap. The fact is that there is a deeper core mechanic that applies to parts of the system like cyberware this core mechanic is called real life and there's no way it can intrude on magic development. Magic development will go on in unchecked and unlimited TWINKNESS because even when a writer with discretion and common sense asks the question; "why not?" there is no answer that doesn't have to be made of whole cloth. The upshot is that cyber development is just harder than magic development. I think you're right. Augmentation may hold it off a while but the cyberpunk element of any fantasy setting is DOOMED eventually. That is unless people work really hard to develop this part of OUR game, and work even harder to understand that there have to be limitations in the development of magic. |
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Dec 8 2006, 04:34 AM
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#153
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 500 Joined: 4-September 06 From: Salt Lake UT Member No.: 9,299 |
@ FrankTrollman
Frank I was unkind to you before and for that I am sincerely sorry. But if you're comairing the liability of being a mage to the liability of having cyber ware this just doesn't wash. In any give square kilometer of any given sprawl. What would you say the dencity of astral patrolling spirits and mages would be? Now compare that to the density of MAD and cyber scanners in the same area. "glowing like a nuclear light bulb?" to who? Not the lonestar beat cop. Not the guard watching the scanner in the local bank. Not to my Sammie. Would you say that there's no way that your mage can avoid looking like a nuclear light bulb short of having the magic physically cut out of him? Does your mage need another character to subvert the astral perception of every (by which I mean those rare few) astral perceiving opponents he encounters daily? How many items of your mage's STAPLE GEAR is absolutely illegal for which no permit--fake or otherwise--is available? I'm not saying that a mage doesn't have to roleplay around astral perception. I'm saying specificly that astral perception and astral tracking are NOT NEARLY as big a liability or nor do they require as much tactical roleplay and resorces as a single "Forbiden" piece of cyber. At least your mage can turn off the spirits and spells when he goes to the airport.
I'm taking that personally because I feel I deserve it. I certainly don't deserve it because it's true of my game play as a player or a GM.
OK I'm trying to be calm here. I wasn't going to mention that. But it just fucking HACKS ME OFF THAT THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT DEVELOPMENT IN CYBER TEC *EVER* IS A GOD DAMNED MAGICAL DEVELOPEMENT! W. T. F. ?
Edit]: OH christ. You were'nt talking about hatchetman's cybermancy were you? I'm so sorry Frank. I didn't see "augmentation" I thought you were refering to the hatchet man post in Cybertechnology. Edit again]: also the red haze in my vision due to a mistaken impression that Frank was talking about cybermancy completely obscured Cheops' post directly below Frank's which said what I said above more politely in 500 fewer words. This is why I shouldn't be allowed to use a keyboard :oops: |
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Dec 8 2006, 04:36 AM
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#154
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
OneTrik:
It's because of quantum. |
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Dec 8 2006, 04:41 AM
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#155
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 500 Joined: 4-September 06 From: Salt Lake UT Member No.: 9,299 |
Lorechaser that's just not funny. Can't you see that I am not a stable man?
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Dec 8 2006, 05:18 AM
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#156
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
edit: ups, misread it. Sorry. :oops:
This post has been edited by Grinder: Dec 8 2006, 05:19 AM |
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Dec 8 2006, 05:23 AM
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#157
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 178 Joined: 4-September 05 Member No.: 7,682 |
Don't annoy the crazy person ;)
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Dec 8 2006, 06:46 AM
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#158
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 617 Joined: 28-May 03 From: Orlando Member No.: 4,644 |
In what errata was Ex-Ex Limited? I cannot find it in v 1.3, is there a 1.5? if so can someone link me to it?
Nevermind found it on the main page. Duh! |
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Dec 8 2006, 08:50 AM
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#159
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
You do know that even "Forbidden" items are only forbidden to private citizens, right? If you have a corp sec. fake SIN you're good to go. There's no gear, staple or otherwise, in the basic book that is absolutely illegal and for which no permits can b obtained. There's just equipment that requires you to be registered as security/military personel before a licence can be obtained. Anybody with a SIN can legally purchase an AK-97, but only someone who is listed as Swiss Military (or whatever) can legally own a White Knight. While we're at it, Combat Spells are not legal to even know unless you're security or military. So really, an average Mage character is probably unable to divest themselves of their contraband - it's in their brain. They can't even have it cut out - they just have 8F materials grafted to their very being. I'm with you on the whole "Cybersamurai are capped right now and Mages aren't!" I hear you and I agree that's an unfortunate state of affairs. I'm even with you on the "OMG! CYBERLIMB CAPACITIES ARE TOTALLY FUXXORED!!11" because, well, they are. But both for starting and experienced characters the cyber assassin is pretty capable of asserting themselves. Yeah, the guy with the big metal arm is not well served by the world of 2070. But a character with some subtle ware can sucessfully impersonate a civillian bystander when viewed through magical, matrix, and physical observation. It's a very important niche, and it isn't because they can overpower a spirit or outshoot a drone (although they can do that). Wired Reflexes are shit in SR4, but a character can get by with Synaptic Boosters and some Sense Ware just fine and be plenty capable in combat and extremely useful in other places. The fact that there's more magic in the world of 2070 than there was in the world of 2050 means that Magic is no longer safe to use. Using magic is like using unsilenced firearms - sometimes it's appropriate, but sometimes it just brings the heat down.
Oh dear. I assume you're talking about cybermancy, right? Essence is an entirely magical problem. Cyberware installation is an entirely medical problem. Cybermancy requires medical advances (to keep the user alive) and magical advances (to keep the user alive). But really, what difference does it make? Player characters don't generally perform cybermantic operations on each other, so who cares what actually goes into making it? Shadowrun is the game where man mets Magic and Machine. Cybermancy is filling some man with Magic and Machine. What's the problem? -Frank |
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Dec 8 2006, 10:03 AM
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#160
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
You use only logic. |
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Dec 8 2006, 10:25 AM
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#161
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 116 Joined: 3-January 05 Member No.: 6,925 |
You want a Unified Essence Theory? Alright, here we go. In the real world, we can pretty conclusively argue against immortal ego spirits because people go braindead. Why isn't Grandpa watching us in Heaven? Well, if Grandpa -- his memories, personality, et cetera -- existed seperately from his physical habitat, why didn't Grandpa's spirit just stick around in his body? If the body isn't necessary to sustain the mind, in other words, why even give a damn about the body's condition at all? We can keep people alive despite massive head trauma, and even induce semi-conciousness medically (L-Dopamine... you wanna read something really freaky? Check out encephalitis lethargica). So the most probable explanation for why we can do these things but not retain an ego/personality in the absence of a functioning brain is, well, the brain is necessary for an ego. This fundamental precept is violated by spirit entities in SR. Even an astrally projecting mage whose body dies sticks around, not the 10 or so minutes it takes for brain activity to cease, but two hours or so. So we know for sure that, in SR, people have a metaphysical spirit. If that's the case, we still have to explain how and why people die. Enter Essence. Essence is a measure of the body's ability to retain the spirit. It can be reduced without losing the spirit, which sticks around by force of will and habit, but the character acts increasingly 'inhuman' as the spirit's hold becomes weakened. Essence is a holistic concept, so when it's drained away, it stays gone; attaching that cyberarm to your neural network, making something artificial part of your body, your ego-image, and your holistic 'self,' punches a hole in it that doesn't get better just because you remove the cyberarm later. It's the spiritual equivalent of brain damage. And like any good lobotomy, you can put whatever you want into the damaged part; once it's gone, it's gone, and that 'space' is free. You have a maximum capacity, but you can fill that up equally with 50 small ball bearings or one giant one, or switch between the two. Is that good enough, or am I missing something? By the way,
is one of the funniest things, in context, I've ever read. Nice timing. =) |
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Dec 8 2006, 10:39 AM
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#162
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
indirectly, by it limiting how high the pilot rating can be. i could have sworn i posted something about this earlier but it does not help a drone to have high response if the pilot programming is a dumb as a doorstop. it will just do dumb stuff faster. but a smarter pilot needs to take into account more data, and therefor need higher response to manage all that data within a useful amount of time. a rigger do not have this problem. so at that point response becomes a issue of how soon after a command is given will it actually happen. the last think you need when going max speed down a crowded street, is a 100+ ms delay between command and action... |
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Dec 8 2006, 10:46 AM
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#163
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
This is not about reality, this is about game mechanics.
A drone and a rigger should use the same attributes in the same test when possible. With Sensor and Response, this is the case. (Although a rigger would use his comlinks Response and a drone the Response of its node) |
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Dec 8 2006, 11:03 AM
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#164
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
In either case the Pilot is still at the very least required to properly interpret the proper course of action to follow, as well as it's use in figguring out when a drone that is simply given commands (as opposed to directly controled) is able to properly follow that sequence of commands, and ontop of it, how well it's able to compensate when that chain of commands falls appart due to the unexpected. Either way I do agree it's kinda odd what they did with piloting as it doesnt seem to play half the role it -should- anymore? |
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Dec 8 2006, 11:19 AM
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#165
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Again: I am not questioning the fact thatn in reality, pilot plays an important role and this fact could be used to justify a use of pilot+skill.
But concerning game mechanics, I say that drone and rigger should use the same attribute if they both have access to this attribute, due to consistency and streamlining reasons. |
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Dec 8 2006, 11:57 AM
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#166
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Welcome to the realm of houserules. Seriously. I had 23 pages of house rules for SR3, and I've got 8 at the moment for SR4. Yeah, magic can get uber fast if - IF - the GM doesn't keep a tight reign on magikers which is exactly why most of magical issues you brought up with the FAQ is already contradicted by my house rules. Cause I've got no problem with my rulings contradicting the RAW, as long as they are consistant. For instance, the reaction enhancer not compatible with wired flexes thing? Already contradicted. Nuff said. 8) See, I agree with you to an extent - cyber monkeys are pretty damn hard to upgrade after character creation, while magikers have nowhere to go but up. But there are ways to control that, especially if one reintroduces Magic loss rules from the older editions. Believe me, when those magikers are scared to even breath for fear of loosing a precious, precious magic point, things start to get more balanced. When their afraid to cast a single spell for fear their astral sig will get tagged by the opposition, when they're afraid to send a spirit on remote service for the same reason, then things get to looking better. IMO all that fear is a very good thing - paranoia is part of the essence of cyberpunk.
In my house rules - it involves holistic medicine :P
Not in my game.
Already done (house rules again) ;) Cyberlimbs do not have separate Body ratings, and come calibrated to the same Agility and Strength as the character in which they are implanted. Cybertorsos and cyberskulls do not have separate Agility ratings, and come calibrated to the same Body and Strength as the character in which they are implanted.
Agreed on the soul selling. How are you running cyberpsychosis btw? I was thinking of making it a negative quality.
Which is why ye olde house rules contradict that, Serbitar style.
Not in my game, but then again in my game TMs don't have an inherent signal rating unless they have a datajack either. Then again that could change with Emergence*. Thankfully, none of my players care about TMs, so in play changes won't be an issue. * If TMs turn out to be some magic-based developement, I'm going to be so pissed. |
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Dec 8 2006, 12:30 PM
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#167
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Agreed 100%. It's been said that they are not, but I cannot see any way in which this isn't so. That is why they do not exist in my game.
Actually, I think this was more true of SR3 than SR4. I think the designers have done a very good job of reigning in the magic by making it rarer in setting material, making it a more sinister unknown and downplaying high-fantasy aspects. If you look at SR3 it was great dragons everywhere, magical cities appearing and all sorts. Read through Runner Havens and you've got a lot of corporate and criminal bickering and corruption. Of course magic is still there, but human nature seems to have made a come-back. I worry about this getting forsaken with Emergence which seems about to launch the metaplot for SR4, but right now, SR4 has less for you to worry about than previous editions with dragon presidents, cities taken over by giant bugs and immortal elves battling lovecraftian horrors. -K. |
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Dec 8 2006, 12:34 PM
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#168
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 116 Joined: 3-January 05 Member No.: 6,925 |
Dude, the Matrix and Cybertechnology as a whole are magical. Or do you really think that viruses attack your computer from the outside-in, and getting a hip replacement and a pacemaker is going to make you start acting like a robot? I mean, really, the Matrix is about as mystical a conception of the Internet you can get. Real-time decryption? Metaphoric interfaces? Geez, man. It's like watching Hackers all over again.
It's cool. That is its only justification. |
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Dec 8 2006, 12:46 PM
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#169
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 21-June 04 From: Cologne, Germany Member No.: 6,429 |
A good option to turn karma into cash was hinted at in Street Magic: Sell your karma to a free spirit. Some of them are very resourceful. |
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Dec 8 2006, 12:59 PM
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#170
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Yes, but how many street sam would reallisticly have contact with a free spirit? It would make much more sense to run across a deal or some other mundain explanation. Example: Sam is wandering back to wherever he lives and runs across a supply truck that is being attacked by some rioters or something. The one rioter that is running his way falls to the ground after twisting his ankle and the Sam looks down to see whatever he needed bounce to his feet. I know this wouldn't make much sense for Bioware, but you could work around somehow and make it work. Thats the job of the GM anyways. Example: Player saves the life of some girl who happens to be the daughter of a mafia head. The mob offers anything as reward, due to the situation the player saved her from, and agrees to get the bioware, though due to the expense of it, the player owes a slight favor. Bam, player gets the bioware and a storyline is opened about the mob's daughter. |
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Dec 8 2006, 01:07 PM
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#171
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 21-June 04 From: Cologne, Germany Member No.: 6,429 |
Some of them may openly advertise the possibility :)
Of course, your ideas are good, too! |
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Dec 8 2006, 02:00 PM
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#172
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
But the development of cyberware and the matrix doesn't have to be naturally limited by common sense, experience or scientific knowledge or not. There should be no reason at all to limit cyberware and the matrix. Physics works the way the writers decide in their game. If they decide that gravity works by having subatomic particles do the macarena, then that is what it does, matter what RL tells us. SR science doesn't need to be limited by RL science, unless so stated in the rules. To take the "flap your wings and fly" example, there is no reason not to have wings that can allow you to fly. Free. Your. Mind. |
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Dec 8 2006, 02:03 PM
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#173
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I don't like the idea of karma as a sort of mystic good luck. I think of it as time, effort, creativity and reflection. Why doesn't every person who's reached 50 years of age speak eight languages and have five different black-belts? Because, aside from getting less mental psychological stimulation (earning karma) than the shadowrunner, they are investing their time and effort into jobs, families, friendships, etc. If a samurai wanted to trade in karma for cash, I'd say something like you can teach martial arts and gun-fu down in Bellevue to the rich kid wannabes for X thousand :nuyen: , but it doesn't leave you the time or energy to work on your own skills or stick to your fitness regimen. Free spirit trade is good too, though. |
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Dec 8 2006, 02:14 PM
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#174
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
maybe im just to used to the SR3 way, but i just do not have a problem with mechanical elegance taking a back seat on this subject. |
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Dec 8 2006, 02:44 PM
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#175
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Didn't see that til after I posted ;)
IMO, the "real" portions of the game making some (highly vague and extremely stretched in cases) from of RL sense is one of the draws of SR. The farther you get from that, the less vermilisitude the setting maintains. |
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