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Konsaki

Dec 8 2006, 10:34 PM

Post #201

Runner

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QUOTE (knasser)

AR vs. VR topic re-appears like a Marvel villain that will not die in yet another thread.

Damnit, almost had me shit myself laughing hard, along with the rest of your witty recap. :rotfl:

Cheops

Dec 8 2006, 10:48 PM

Post #202

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (blakkie)

QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Dec 8 2006, 03:14 PM)

Very much like how a Hacker with Computer 5 and Artisan 4 could proabbaly make a pretty good living as a graphic designer if there wasn't some pressing reason for him to be running the shadows instead.

Which is what it comes down to. A character without a reason to be in the shadows fundementally lacks the verisimilitude right from the start that is suppositly being sought. It's the same thing as "I take 1 million :nuyen: resources in chargen and buy a permanent lifestyle. Whoot, I win!" :wobble:

@Cheops

My mind boggles at a SR game in which the players decide that's a good idea. Why weren't you playing Parker Brother's Monopoly instead? :?

I don't play mages. I play riggers or hackers (which btw is why I'm interested in SR4 at all--they are much cooler now).

I would never play a character like this unless the GM said "You guys get 1 year off what do your characters do?"

But it begs the question...why include rules for such things in the first place? Why isn't making your own foci just an Extended Enchanting + Magic (Force x2 or 3, 1 month) test like every single other B&R test I've seen in the game (including Spell Design). There's no reason to include rules exploits like that instead of three pages of more flavour.

Making your own programs takes up like a quarter page and 1 box.

I interepreted the rules to mean that at 3 successes you get 1 unit and everyone after that you get another. Even with that way of tracking hits a comfortable medium or high lifestyle is possible.

Apart from being SINless, criminal SIN, addicted to something, or a genuine neo-anarchist I don't see the point of a mage working the shadows apart from thrill seeking or ghetto mentality. Also, at some point in SR3 and SR4 the whole we are neo-anarchists fighting against the corporate machine got lost and now shadowrunners are basically terrorism/espionage mercenaries. That's where a lot of the Cyberpunk feel has been lost. Somehow it went from fighting for something bigger than yourself to getting paid because you don't or can't get work elsewhere that pays as good.

Konsaki View Member Profile	Dec 8 2006, 11:00 PM Post #203
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445	Well, in SR4, its alot harder to stick it to the man while remaining SINless and still operate in society, due to the tech advances. In SR3, you just had a credstick to handle your SIN, but it wasnt wireless, so people actually had to stop you and request it. Now you get scanned every step you make, asking for your SIN automaticly... It's become really interesting, and Fake SINs are the requirement instead of an option.

Mistwalker View Member Profile	Dec 8 2006, 11:07 PM Post #204
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 4-September 06 Member No.: 9,304	Well, a good part of the problem with doing the alchemy route is, where do you get the uncontaminated components? It can be a full run just to get into a clean area, to find some telesma, then get out. California Free state source book had some good stuff about the protections some were putting on their wilderness areas. It's not like you can just take a walk down the street and and find telesma just lying around.

Ancient History

Dec 8 2006, 11:10 PM

Post #205

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (Cheops @ Dec 8 2006, 06:28 PM)

However, the enchanting rules seem to have been converted over from SR3 almost word for word.

You are incorrect in this statement. It offends me.

De Badd Ass

Dec 8 2006, 11:11 PM

Post #206

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Konsaki)

QUOTE (prionic6 @ Dec 8 2006, 09:46 PM)

QUOTE (Konsaki @ Dec 8 2006, 02:56 AM)

There is the option, if your GM would allow it, to change your Karma into a Nuyen value and trade it for a piece of gear.

A good option to turn karma into cash was hinted at in Street Magic: Sell your karma to a free spirit. Some of them are very resourceful.

Yes, but how many street sam would reallisticly have contact with a free spirit?

That's what fixers are for!

You could always advertise on a highway billboard. Free spirits might see that. I doubt they check Craig's List; you never know.

Cheops View Member Profile	Dec 8 2006, 11:13 PM Post #207
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392	No but that's where Salish contacts in Seattle come in handy.... Sorry Ancient History, doing a more proper read through now. Has changed somewhat but not that much...just shorter now and less complex. BTW was that you who formally put True Elements into SR? I just read that little section and thought it was cool.

OneTrikPony

Dec 8 2006, 11:18 PM

Post #208

Moving Target

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noneuklid

QUOTE

attaching that cyberarm to your neural network, making something artificial part of your body, your ego-image, and your holistic 'self,' punches a hole in it that doesn't get better just because you remove the cyberarm later. It's the spiritual equivalent of brain damage.

Here are some cannon references:

QUOTE

M&M pp. 11-12 "POWER SOURCES"
"By reinforcing the natural myolinear sheath inderfacing that connects the nervous system pathways using superconductive and macroconductive materials that are constantly repaired and reconneted via nanotechnology, cyberware can be powerd from within the body...Some researchers believe that this base physiological change may also reduce essence. Which could explain why there have been no further breakthroughs since the developement of Deltaware."

QUOTE

Cybertechnology, pp. 66 "HOW CYBERMANCY WORKS"
"According to Clark and Clybourne, the problem with cyberware is the changes it makes between the aura and the body. You can get away with altering your body up to a point; but eventually you reach a threshold where the difference between the aural template and the physical body is so great that the spirit slips away or dissolves (depending on whether or not you believe in a hereafter). When the spirit leaves, the body dies"

I can accept either of these things changes to the body, changes to the neural pathways. That's ok I don't actualy care why because we must have established LIMITATIONS on cyberware the essence mechanic works great to do that. What i would have apprieciated in the develpement of either of these hinted at theories is some advancement on par with initiation. I would also like some mechanic, even unsupported by shadowtalk, about what happens when you have cyber removed. Even If the answer is "nothing you can never regain essence, you can never install anything else in your metagame essence hole" I'll take it because at least it's an answer that I didn't have to make up wondering if I'm violating the setting. Which brings me to

NightmareX

QUOTE

Welcome to the realm of houserules.

Dude I could spring some wicked house rules. They pop into my head every time I read something I don't like. I want to do it everytime a player makes a NightOne (Puke!) who travels around the city as an eagle because he has the criterform spell. (that's not "unrealistic" in our "magiky" setting but the character never thinks about the logistics and it's hard to GM). You know when I really think hard about house rules? When I get that Bi-anual itch to port Marvel's Incredible Hulk into shadowrun. I'm not kidding, I'm a big fan, I even liked the movie. I'd design a pen and paper RPG game around the Hulk which is about what I'd be doing if I HRed shadowrun enough to alow the Hulk in the game. My point is that I wanna house rule all the time but I can't because I'm a munchy twink with little discression and too wild an imagination. The reality about house rules is that they ussually happen when the GM doesn't like the implications of RAW on his setting. I like to keep true to the setting. I came to play shadowrun not some house ruled analog.

Toturi

QUOTE

But the development of cyberware and the matrix doesn't have to be naturally limited by common sense, experience or scientific knowledge or not. There should be no reason at all to limit cyberware and the matrix. Physics works the way the writers decide in their game. If they decide that gravity works by having subatomic particles do the macarena, then that is what it does,

True, part of the point of a RPG is provideing a rules framework to arbitrate actions that a player would not or could not do in RL. That's why the're fun. My point was that when those actions are say, shooting a gun, rideing a bike, the immagination is naturaly bound by experience and common knowledge. This is proven by your own reference to gravity and subatomic particles. I'd give you points if you had sugested that gravity works because the soul of all heavenly bodies desires to be united and thus uses telekinesis to attract everything. Or something more whimsical. It appears to me that you are evedently aware of the reality of sub atomic particles and it intruded on your imagination of the macarena.

and to knasser's summary above :D that was good. I'm feeling fine now BTW

Ancient History View Member Profile	Dec 8 2006, 11:21 PM Post #209
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935	I wrote the chapter, aye, but it's more than a simplification and a clean up if I must say. When you compare Street Magic to previous Shadowrun magic sourcebooks, it is really the single most extensive re-write on the system ever made. You can see this in the fact that certain sections from the Grimoire were carried word-for-word through the Grimoire II (and from there or Awakenings to Magic in the Shadows; a handful of examples can be seen on the Mundane Magic page.)

Cheops

Dec 8 2006, 11:24 PM

Post #210

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (Ancient History)

I wrote the chapter, aye, but it's more than a simplification and a clean up if I must say.

When you compare Street Magic to previous Shadowrun magic sourcebooks, it is really the single most extensive re-write on the system ever made. You can see this in the fact that certain sections from the Grimoire were carried word-for-word through the Grimoire II (and from there or Awakenings to Magic in the Shadows; a handful of examples can be seen on the Mundane Magic page.)

As I said I'm doing a more proper read through...see my post re: vessels :D

Jaid

Dec 8 2006, 11:44 PM

Post #211

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (OneTrikPony)

That is, If one can develop cybermancy why cant one develope an essence breakthrough or at least a better understanding of how essence limits cyberware instalation. If they're sticking to the modification of the nervous system for bioelectric powersources put a person's aura out of phase idea, how about a piece of gear, nanites, bioware, better damned batteries, that can be used to offset essence drain?

you mean, something like deltaware?

incidentally, certain things did go down in essence cost, did they not? iirc, datajack used to be 0.2 essence, for example. cybereyes and ears used to be 0.5 also, i think (not 100% sure), and there's probably some others i didn't look at...

yesman

Dec 8 2006, 11:45 PM

Post #212

Target

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QUOTE (Serbitar)

You use only logic.

How'd you come by just Logic? And, don't take this the wrong way, but are you just posting your house-rule/opinion; or do you have a track on what's official?

knasser

Dec 8 2006, 11:58 PM

Post #213

Shadow Cartographer

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QUOTE (OneTrikPony)

You know when I really think hard about house rules? When I get that Bi-anual itch to port Marvel's Incredible Hulk into shadowrun.

I'm a great admirer of Ang Lee's work, but I wouldn't want to put the Hulk in my game. Still, if you do there's no real need for house rules. So long as you don't mind alternate backgrounds for the same essential character, check out SM's rules for Possession. Also check out SM's rules for Free Spirits. Also Spirit Pact to keep it specific to one character.

Voilá - ordinary metahuman with occasional bouts of super physical ability and (if it were a plant spirit) - optional powers of regeneration and greeness.

Any use?

De Badd Ass

Dec 8 2006, 11:58 PM

Post #214

Moving Target

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QUOTE (yesman)

QUOTE (Serbitar @ Dec 8 2006, 04:03 AM)

You use only logic.

How'd you come by just Logic? And, don't take this the wrong way, but are you just posting your house-rule/opinion; or do you have a track on what's official?

QUOTE (SR4 p54: MAKING TESTS/Defaulting)

Characters who default use only the linked attribute in their dice pool. Additionally, they suffer a –1 dice pool modifier.

It's pretty clear.

OneTrikPony

Dec 8 2006, 11:58 PM

Post #215

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Jaid)

QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Dec 8 2006, 05:25 PM)

That is, If one can develop cybermancy why cant one develope an essence breakthrough or at least a better understanding of how essence limits cyberware instalation. If they're sticking to the modification of the nervous system for bioelectric powersources put a person's aura out of phase idea, how about a piece of gear, nanites, bioware, better damned batteries, that can be used to offset essence drain?

you mean, something like deltaware?

No I mean the cyber equivelant of magical initiation which has no nuyen cost. (that was me being sarcastic)

Deltaware is cool. Or it would be if they'd make delta clinics as easy to find and open to the public as initiatory groups. Delta ware halves the essence cost for TEN TIMES the nuyen cost. That keeps it ballanced internaly with cyberware but I still cant initiate to buy more essence points the way an adept can buy more magic points. Even If I could buy more essence I'd still be paying millions of ¥¥ to get any benefiet.

Don't try to tell me that a data jack is cheeper when I now have to pay essence for bioware.

Konsaki View Member Profile	Dec 9 2006, 12:00 AM Post #216
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445	@DBA The only problem is that the matrix rules dont follow the standard rules like everything else in the book does... Thats one of my biggest complaints about them. If they were to rewrite them into a form that follows the normal flow of the rules, I would gladly buy the BBB over again, but they wont because 'They arnt wrong' even if they are.

OneTrikPony

Dec 9 2006, 12:09 AM

Post #217

Moving Target

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QUOTE (knasser)

QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Dec 8 2006, 11:18 PM)

You know when I really think hard about house rules? When I get that Bi-anual itch to port Marvel's Incredible Hulk into shadowrun.

I'm a great admirer of Ang Lee's work, but I wouldn't want to put the Hulk in my game. Still, if you do there's no real need for house rules. So long as you don't mind alternate backgrounds for the same essential character, check out SM's rules for Possession. Also check out SM's rules for Free Spirits. Also Spirit Pact to keep it specific to one character.

Voilá - ordinary metahuman with occasional bouts of super physical ability and (if it were a plant spirit) - optional powers of regeneration and greeness.

Any use?

:D Dude! you're just baiting me. I'm kinda laughing but really to suggest that you can make an SR Hulk with magic after I've been whineing about magic being unrestricted is just cruel.

Seriously that was just mean. Are you trying to make me get my self banned?

I would like everyone to note that I was a model of self control in responding to t knasser :)

NOW WHERE ARE MY PILLS? DAMNIT!

De Badd Ass

Dec 9 2006, 12:09 AM

Post #218

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Konsaki)

@DBA
The only problem is that the matrix rules dont follow the standard rules like everything else in the book does... Thats one of my biggest complaints about them. If they were to rewrite them into a form that follows the normal flow of the rules, I would gladly buy the BBB over again, but they wont because 'They arnt wrong' even if they are.

Are you asking for the defaulting rules to be different? Why?
Are you stating that there are different defaulting rules?
Are you unhappy with the defaulting rules? Why?
What's wrong with the current defaulting rule?

Fortune

Dec 9 2006, 12:10 AM

Post #219

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (De Badd Ass)

QUOTE (SR4 p54: MAKING TESTS/Defaulting)

Characters who default use only the linked attribute in their dice pool. Additionally, they suffer a –1 dice pool modifier.

It's pretty clear.

Except that Logic is not in any way the linked Attribute in this case. There is no linked Attribute at all.

mfb

Dec 9 2006, 12:10 AM

Post #220

Immortal Elf

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QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable)

We've covered this before - the "kg" or whatever of "gold" that a magician finds, is, in fact, a trivial amout of actual Au. Rather - it's a lump of rock that hasn't been polluted, hasn't been worked with machinery, and has just enough actual gold to be useful for alchemy.

source? if they've clarified it to work that way in SR4, okay, but there was certainly nothing in SR3 like that. and when i brought it up to the Street Magic guys, the impression i got was that they didn't view it as enough of a problem to fix. which i basically agree with, to be honest--at least, there are lots of other things in both SR3 and SR4 that i'd want to see fixed first.

FrankTrollman

Dec 9 2006, 12:11 AM

Post #221

Prime Runner

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QUOTE

Don't try to tell me that a data jack is cheeper when I now have to pay essence for bioware.

That's a disengenuous argument when Bioware/Cyberware mixing results in the less cost being halved and it is no longer impossible to use First Aid on characters with a big chunk of bioware.

In answer to your question about Essence Holes: No you don't get Essence back. Ever. But your Essence only goes down if the current cost exceeds your lost Essence, so cyberware can be replaced with new cyberware of the same or lower Essence cost and you won't lose any more. That'll be more explicit in Augmentation.

QUOTE

Delta ware halves the essence cost for TEN TIMES the nuyen cost.

Do you consider it to be infinity times the Karma cost or zero times the Karma cost?

-Frank

Konsaki

Dec 9 2006, 12:18 AM

Post #222

Runner

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QUOTE (De Badd Ass @ Dec 9 2006, 09:09 AM)

QUOTE (Konsaki @ Dec 8 2006, 08:00 PM)

@DBA
The only problem is that the matrix rules dont follow the standard rules like everything else in the book does... Thats one of my biggest complaints about them. If they were to rewrite them into a form that follows the normal flow of the rules, I would gladly buy the BBB over again, but they wont because 'They arnt wrong' even if they are.

Are you asking for the defaulting rules to be different? Why?
Are you stating that there are different defaulting rules?
Are you unhappy with the defaulting rules? Why?
What's wrong with the current defaulting rule?

I think the current defaulting rules work great for everything but matrix actions because of the switch to Skill+Program.
No, there arnt different defaulting rules, they just dont work because of the change above.
I'm not unhappy with the defaulting rules, I'm unhappy with the way the matrix dice pools are ruled, which make defaulting insane. Going from Hacking 1 + Exploit 0 for a dicepool of 1 to a logic 6(9) -1, for a dicepool of 8 just doesnt make sense.
Blah, blah, blah, how many times can you rewrite the same question? :silly:

This said, I think they should have gone with a Attribute+Skill dicepool with hits limited by Program, just like they did with the magic system. It would have meshed alot better with the overall system.
And let me reiterate - There is nothing wrong with the defaulting system when used outside of the current matrix rules, the matrix rules dont work with them though.

De Badd Ass

Dec 9 2006, 12:19 AM

Post #223

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Fortune)

QUOTE (De Badd Ass @ Dec 9 2006, 10:58 AM)

QUOTE (SR4 p54: MAKING TESTS/Defaulting)

Characters who default use only the linked attribute in their dice pool. Additionally, they suffer a –1 dice pool modifier.

It's pretty clear.

Except that Logic is not in any way the linked Attribute in this case. There is no linked Attribute at all.

My Bad! I thought Computer and Hacking were linked to Logic.

Konsaki

Dec 9 2006, 12:21 AM

Post #224

Runner

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QUOTE (De Badd Ass)

QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 8 2006, 08:10 PM)

QUOTE (De Badd Ass @ Dec 9 2006, 10:58 AM)

QUOTE (SR4 p54: MAKING TESTS/Defaulting)

Characters who default use only the linked attribute in their dice pool. Additionally, they suffer a –1 dice pool modifier.

It's pretty clear.

Except that Logic is not in any way the linked Attribute in this case. There is no linked Attribute at all.

My Bad! I thought Computer and Hacking were linked to Logic.

Yeah, when the dicepool doesnt call for a program instead...
See LOGIC anywhere in the standard HACKING + EXPLOIT dicepool?

Fortune

Dec 9 2006, 12:24 AM

Post #225

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (De Badd Ass @ Dec 9 2006, 11:19 AM)

My Bad! I thought Computer and Hacking were linked to Logic.

They are ... sort of. Logic is not actually involved in the test however, as it is listed as Skill + Program (no Attribute involved). That makes it difficult to determine the default default (:D) for a Hacking test with no Program available.

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