 FAQ Has Arrived, ... Get your 4th encounter here |
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 Dec 9 2006, 12:25 AM
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#226
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-April 03 From: The UV Nexus Member No.: 4,474  |
You can always option for the grittier gameplay rules (p69) when defaulting. These limit you to 1 hit, and glitch on 1s and 2s. BTW: It was four different questions. I take it that your complaint is that a PC with Logic 9 is more logical than a computer, and doesn't need no stinkin' programs. What's wrong with that? |
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Dec 9 2006, 12:28 AM
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#227
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
and that fixes defaulting with the matrix rules how?
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Dec 9 2006, 12:35 AM
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#228
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Doesn't seem to, and it shouldn't. Defaulting in most Matrix situations seems silly. Without even a basic program, you just plain can't perform certain actions. This make sense to me, but then I'm not an experienced programmer/hacker.
Is there any evidence to the contrary? |
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Dec 9 2006, 12:36 AM
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#229
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
You are now the smartest person on earth, DBA. Play Counter Strike from the window's dos prompt. Yeah, thats a snarky response, but thats what you expect a logic 9 person to do without the proper interface. Even if the Logic+Hacking was limited by Expoit program, you are still factoring in the program and it's quality. I still want all the factors that are in the matrix rules, just want them to work in a more logical pattern that flows with the rest of the game... What they did was take baseball and then added a rule where you had to walk on your hands from second base to third... |
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Dec 9 2006, 12:36 AM
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#230
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-April 03 From: The UV Nexus Member No.: 4,474 |
I don't know. But it moved me up to #3 :love: Don't worry. You are still #1. |
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Dec 9 2006, 12:38 AM
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#231
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Yeah, push your post count instead of working on a productive thing, like arguing about a system we, as players, have almost no chance of convincing the devs to change... I need a drink...
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Dec 9 2006, 12:46 AM
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#232
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Target Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 18-September 05 Member No.: 7,758 |
not really that clear, no. Normal skill pools are Linked Attribute + Skill. Hacking Pools are Program + Skill. Normally defaulting is what happens when the Skill part of the equation isn't there. However, when hacking without software, the Skill part of the equation is there. In Hacking pools, the Program takes the place of the Linking Attribute; and the normal defaulting rules don't handle situations with Skills and no Attributes (for seemingly obvious reasons). It seems to me that there are only two ways to handle this more or less predicated by existing rules. Using whatever half of the Hacking pool you *do have* as the default pool; or using the Attribute+Skill pool for directly interfacing when you default. If you can make a case for using Logic, I would love to hear it. Or better yet, if one of the Devs chances by and clears up what a default is for Hacking tests, I would really really love to hear it. |
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Dec 9 2006, 12:47 AM
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#233
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-April 03 From: The UV Nexus Member No.: 4,474 |
I am playing a TM now, have played TMs before, and created a TM for your game. I am not arguing for rule consistency. I am explaining how I play TMs; how I hope GMs referee TMs. This is especially important to me because I play TMs on Dumpshock. I make jokes to keep the debates from escalating to the Carpe Ingram stage. I don't make jokes about the rules themselves. BTW: I envy your TMs logic 9; the best I ever got was 5. Probably because I spent 50 build points on complex forms instead. |
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Dec 9 2006, 12:49 AM
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#234
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: I'm soooo sorry. The idea occurred to me and I just couldn't resist. So I didn't. :D Watch out for those pills - SR4 addiction rules are nasty! |
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Dec 9 2006, 12:55 AM
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#235
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-April 03 From: The UV Nexus Member No.: 4,474 |
How is attribute+skill more of a penalty than attribute-1? Sounds like you really want skill or skill-1 Logic IS the attribute in your equation, isn't it? At first I was going to suggest that the matrix rules just substitute program for attribute. Konsaki brought up the case where attribute is better. I was also going to suggest that defaulting should occur at meat body speeds instead of matrix speeds. Then I realized that some would point out their hacker with wired 3 is faster than the commlink. |
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Dec 9 2006, 12:57 AM
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#236
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
I was talking about a theoretical Hacker with the Logic boosting Bioware... To get a TM that high would seriously damage it's Resonance stat, which would be illogical :P |
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Dec 9 2006, 01:03 AM
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#237
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Target Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 18-September 05 Member No.: 7,758 |
OK To address your first question, what does which roll is more of a penalty have to do with anything? The point isn't to find out how to get the most or least dice, it's to find out what the Devs meant by defaulting. Short of mind reading, or a Dev speaking up, we can only do that by trying to find a way to handle defaulting that's as consistent with the game's current design as possible. And your second, what are you talking about? |
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Dec 9 2006, 01:07 AM
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#238
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I'm no hacker in the Hollywood sense. I have been a professional programmer. This isn't going to resolve the defaulting issue, it's a tangent; but I'm not overly impressed with the way hacking in SR4 is independent of attributes. Aside from making mental attributes less important to the hacker from a game balance point of view, the clear message it is sending is that a hacker is not a good hacker because they're smart, but because they have access to the good toys. Essentially the SR4 hacker is a script kiddie. I.e. not one who really understands things and solves things himself, but someone who just picks up tools written by others and runs them. And it makes me sad to think that the electronic espionage elite of 2070 are merely downloading Virus Suite 23.4 from their local e-tailer. I can just see that sodding paper clip popping up and asking "Hi there, it looks like you're trying to hack Renraku. Would you like to try a trojan or scan for open ports?" Hackers today (in the Hollywood sense), do use a variety of tools and scripts to do their work. But I think the heroic SR hacker should be using his or her natural ability somewhat. And I don't really feel that the skill component covers this. I think attributes need to be reintroduced into hacking in SR4. |
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Dec 9 2006, 01:10 AM
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#239
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-April 03 From: The UV Nexus Member No.: 4,474 |
1. Konsaki was complaining that a hacker with logic 9 is better off defaulting to logic - 1 than rolling hacking 5 + exploit 1. He feels that defaulting should be a penalty, not a benefit. Knasser and I disagree. (Compare a program to a Microsoft Wizard. They make things easier for most people. Some people can do even better without them.) 2. You posted an equation: attribute+skill. Logic is the linked attribute for computer and hacking. That's what I am talking about. I don't care about internally consistent rules. I'm happy with playable rules. |
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Dec 9 2006, 01:13 AM
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#240
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
It would be nice to see how Logic could be made important to Hacking aside from program creation, Hardware, and various indirect (but still very important) skills.
However, the way its set up makes sense as a foundation for a fun hacking system. I'd rather add something to the current existing rules than replace them. |
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Dec 9 2006, 01:15 AM
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#241
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
My hero! :D |
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Dec 9 2006, 01:18 AM
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#242
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Target Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 18-September 05 Member No.: 7,758 |
@: DeBadAss
Ok, that threw me off because you were replying to Konsaki's post after a Quote from me. The point's still valid. About the Logic/Hacking thing. Logic is the Attribute used when the Hacking Skill isn't present. The Hacking Skill *is* present. |
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Dec 9 2006, 01:26 AM
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#243
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Defaulting by definition should be a penalty! You lack the required something and have to fall back on something that is of less quality. A Hacker should NEVER have to default, because to default would mean he lacks the hacking skills and is no hacker! Show me a character who was rolled up a to be a hacker with no skills from the Electronic and Hacking groups. (And I'm not talking about Technomancers right now, leave them out of this) They have a 0 in all required skills, but they have a 9 in Logic, oh no, they are now more powerfull than any standard hacker could ever be, just because they defaulted to a bigger dicepool... that makes as much sense as 'Chewbacca being from planet Kashyyyk, but lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!' |
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Dec 9 2006, 01:33 AM
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#244
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 18-April 03 From: The UV Nexus Member No.: 4,474 |
Because attribute (Logic) isn't present in the skill+program equation, it creates the scenario where Vulcan hackers might default by choice rather than by necessity; ie. any time attribute-1 > skill+program (A Vulcan hacker is an elf with logic 9. Tuvak and Spock would be Vulcan hacker adepts with analytics and multitasking). An example would be Don Lancaster. He claimed he could do more with a text editor than with Adobe Illustrator. He could create effects in Postscripts that weren't available in Illustrator. I have little problem with this. Most of the dumpshock community seems to be divided into two camps: those that feel attribute should always come into play, and those that feel attribute should never come into play. |
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Dec 9 2006, 01:36 AM
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#245
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Ha! Microsoft products make it very easy to do what they think you want to do. I'm not sure I do take your part in this, actually. You have come up with a very good justification for why the rules are as they are. That is to say, some people are so smart that they will forgo the "Microsoft Wizard" approach and just do it themselves. Which equates to defaulting in this instance. But for aesthetic reasons, I think I would like a hacker to be doing this sort of thing more often whereas unless the hacker is very smart in deed, he is always going to be second fiddle to Clippy. I just feel that the hackers in SR4 should be more than just script kiddies who use other people's programs. If that's all they are, then anyone and everyone is a hacker if they have enough money. The systems as it stands does make a sense and does have a plausability to it based on real world computer cracking. And as I said, I love your fluff justification of the RAW. But in the other thread that's just sprung up, a system has been proposed that combines skill, attribute and program and I think that if you have a system that reflects all of the components of being a good hacker, rather than just two of them, then that is superior. I'm not totally swayed either way right now, but these are my thoughts. |
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Dec 9 2006, 01:37 AM
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#246
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Ok, DBA, I had a laugh at your last post with the Vulcans. But I still dont understand how you are working this, other than working your post count... your last post makes sense by itself, but not when linked with the quote you are responding too...
Maybe that is just me being up 23 hours... I dont know. |
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Dec 9 2006, 01:48 AM
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#247
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
this is just priceless :P
i seriously laughed for like a minute when i read that :rotfl: anyways, yeah... the script kiddies thing is just kinda lame... i much prefer the attribute + skill, hits limited by program method. |
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Dec 9 2006, 01:49 AM
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#248
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
You and me both ... on all your points. :D
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Dec 9 2006, 01:52 AM
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#249
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Target Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 18-September 05 Member No.: 7,758 |
We aren't talking about lack of Skill, we are talking about lack of Program. I don't think anybody has suggested using Logic-1 as a substitue for the Skill in Hacking Pools. That's brings up an interesting point. What to do if you have the Program, but not the Skill? Also as an aside, it's a connotation of Default, not the definition, that equates defaulting with lesser quality. Default typically just means only alternative, or assumed alternative. |
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Dec 9 2006, 01:56 AM
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#250
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
if the default is the better choice, then it's not really the alternative, it's the preferred choice. [edit] default can also mean neither of those... for example, the default could be defined as what happens if you make no effort to change it. [/edit] This post has been edited by Jaid: Dec 9 2006, 01:56 AM |
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