Grenades/Indirect Area spells, per the FAQ, Bag of Devil-Rats problem? Options

[RunnerPaul]

So, in the new FAQ, there have been guidelines suggested for how to handle grenades, and indirect area effect combat spells. Basically, the idea is, if you're trying to catch targets in the blast radius, you must always have a primary target who will be rolling against you in an opposed test, even if you're "targeting the floor".

Supposedly, this is being suggested because the strategy of targeting the floor is too easy.

For grenades, I would counter that assertion by pointing out that once you've reduced your scatter to 0m, any extra successes start upping your DV against your nominated target. If your target is a point on the floor, guess what? The floor takes more damage. However, this increase in DV only applies to the actual target of the grenade. Nothing in the section on Blast Effects references the accuracy of your throw, so I take that to mean anyone who isn't the named target suffers the base damage of the grenade, not adjusted for accuracy, factored down per distance from the centerpoint of the blast.

So while it's easier to target a point on the floor than to hit a live target with a grenade (Success Test vs. Opposed Test), by doing so, you're sacrificing the chance of an accurate throw increasing the DV.


On the Magic side, I'm inclined to give a little more leeway; while p.173 talks about spells that target points in space, the simple fact is that a combat spell is going to need a tangible thing to slam destructive energy into. The centerpoint of the area doesn't have to be on top of your primary target, but in all honesty, you should have one. However, there's a snag.

The v1.5 Errata states that indirect combat spells can affect targets that are in the area, but not in LOS. This would make indirect combat spells very useful, because you could use them to take out opponents you can't see. But as FanPro giveth, FanPro taketh away: the FAQ says you have to have a primary target that you can see, so that you get the Opposed Test. So never mind the fact that you know the swat team's on the other side of that alloy steel door, you can't just cast your fireball at the door with a centerpoint a couple of meters into the next room, and hope to get a few successes over the Object Resistance Threshold of 3, because that tactic is "too easy".



However, I believe I may have the solution. Borrowing a page from the RPG that gives you cancer, I figure we can just repurpose the handy "Bag of Rats" (or, since this is Shadowrun, more appropriately, Bag of Devil Rats):

Step 1. Get a bunch of devil rats. (Check your local barrens, they should have an ample supply)

Step 2. Fit them with miniature AR goggles and train them to scamper over to an ARO that will show in the goggles field of view.

Step 3. Drug the devil rats with something that will knock a few points off their reaction (Won't need much, since they'll also be at -2 dice for trying to dodge a blast effect) and then bag them up.

Step 4. Whenever you would normally want to "target the floor" with a grenade to catch opponents in the blast radius, or you want to be able to catch unseen foes in an indirect combat spell, pull a devil rat out of the bag and use your commlink to move their "go here" ARO where you want to hit.

Step 5. Rat scampers over to the spot you want and Boom, you grenade/spell it. (while the FAQ insists on having an Opposed Test, nothing says you can't rig that test in your favor by bringing your own target)

Step 6. ???

Step 7. Profit!

[Mikado]

OMFG! Thats amazing!
As a GM I would physically get up and back-hand the player who tried this in my game.
However, as a player.... I would use this tactic every time I could.

[RunnerPaul]

I'm going to go over this with the people at my table, but I imagine that we're going to stick with what we've been doing with grenades, and as for indirect combat spells, now that they can hit unseen targets, we'll allow targeting of inanimate objects as the primary target, with the caveat that Object Resistance will have to be beat in those cases before the spell will have effect.

Sure, blasts make things "easy" when one side is trying to take out the other, but the solution to that isn't forcing Opposed Tests when none are called for, it's being smart about what to do when the grenades start flying. Held actions are your friend if you've got grenades being hurled in your general direction. Unless it's an airburst, you've got til the next init pass to get out of the blast radius, or if you want stupid heroics, try to pick the thing up and throw it away.

[Kesslan]

Hmm I'm going to have to check that out, cause I definately think I'd HR that as well. It seems silly to me that you cant exploit an AOE weapon in a realistic manner. IE roll a grenade past your target or something. At the same time though I'd agree with the sentiment that if your target is 'spot on the floor' increased accuracy success just means your grenade lands there and no addiotnal damage is caused jsut cuase you got the grenade right ontop of a specific floor tile.

The same in my mind would sort of count for spells, assuming that spell can technicaly be used against an inaminate object in the first place. If it was a case that some how the 'mana' is drawn from the target or some wierd thing like that then no I would follow the book. Otherwise it just seems silly to me taht you couldnt say.. target a support pillar you can phsyically see through the doorway that would catch say that hypotetical swat team in range of the blast radius.

[toturi]

[Kesslan]

Dunno, since were specifically dealing with AOE spells. It specifically states any targets that are visible within the AOE are affected, but ti also sort of states that ones you cant see would be as well. Out of the main book on page 173 under Area Spells it states:

Area spells affect all valid targets witin the radius of the effect, friend and foe alike (Including the caster)

That alone to to me says that no the target doesnt have to be technically visible just within the AOE to hit it. Since unless your looking at at least a part of yourself (which you may very well not be if your casing from around a corner or something which you can do) you wouldnt be a 'visual' target.

It also states under 'Determin Effect' that for AOE spells each target rolls it's own resists. So the effects upon say, a pillar would have no bearing what so ever uppon the rolls to resist of say Swat Guy 1 who's standing 3 meters away from the pillar but otu of your actual LOS. Infact it states that for inanimate objects vs elemental spells said object only restist with armor as is affected as per barriers page 157

Other spells to damage the inanimate object would have to use armor X2 as well as the test having to beat the threshold to affect said inanimate object. But that only applies to non elemental based spells and mana based spells have no effect at all as the object isnt alive.

[Kesslan]

I can sort of see where this 'opposed test' stuff is coming into play and I suppose after further reading of the FAQ I can sort of see the reasoning behind it. I mean if your aiming for specific character behind a barrier he would technically have a chance to notice/run away what ever. At the same time some one with a good sense of time and a really good aim can pop the spoon on a grenade, count down and then toss the grenade in the general area and it would go of without the poor bugger ever having a chance to find further cover anyway.

And stuff like a fireball is a freaking ball of fire. I dunnop ersonaly I'd allow targeting of non specific targets to catch the real targets in the blast radius but I'd use just the base damage rather than any possible 'enhanced' damage.

It's one of those things I'd say, go with what you feel is best. This is overall also a stance I'd be quite willing to debate about but it's definately something as a whole I dont entirely agree with (Though I wouldnt argue against a GM enfocing the opposed test either). Cause i mean calling out a 'main target' for an AOE attack is kinda silly unless your aiming right at the guy himself. If I was firing say... a rocket launcher right at a guy in the middle of a group of say 10, I can definately see him 'taking more damage'. Everyone else is simply caught in the blast radius. By tthe same theme if I'm just rolling a hand grenade into a room and not specifically trying to roll it at some ones feet I dont see why (except out of say pure luck or somethign ) It should mystically bounce between the guys legs or something.

Cause thats the other thing on a directly oposed test for an AOE. what then happens if the primary target 'dodges'? Suddenly just cause that guy is wired to the guils with reflex mods suddenly everyone below him is temporarily for that attack also just as fast. It makes no sense.

[knasser]

Why bother training devil rats with AR implants. You get a toy car, duct tape and a hamster - you go. :D

Actually, I'm quite anti- cruelty to animals. Substitute rollerblades for toy car and child for hamster, please. Added bonus that Sec guards may even try to get closer to the target if you don't push it hard enough to reach them.

But Kesslan is correct - you don't actually need to do it as the object resistance of the floor wont be a problem for indirect combat spells.

[Kesslan]

[RunnerPaul]

[hyzmarca]

My personal favorite is to put a devil rat or a small infant ghoul into a customized assault cannon shell. This way, you not only get the grenade loophole, you also get a ranged weapon that can defeat the Immunity to Normal Weapons of spirits.

[Kesslan]

[Jaid]

[Serbitar]

My proposition:

[toturi]

[noneuklid]

So, wait a second. Does this mean you can no longer throw your HE grenade into a room full of fragile electronics and have it blow up? This means, presumably, either you are physically incapable of throwing a grenade at an inanimate object, or you throw it but it refuses to explode without an animate target.

Since when did grenades start insisting on fair play?

Wait. Wait.

Do microbes get an Opposed Test to dodge?

[RunnerPaul]

[Kesslan]

As for playing the catbomb thing as a reference to D&D I dont even know of any reference of D&D to exploding felines real or otherwise. As to playing it against cannon/faq. I've yet to use em in SR, though I'm increasingly inclined to try (It's just so expensive and time consuming compared to just buying a hand grenade though).

And I agree with the crasiness of requiring an opposed test for a grenade. If you want to 'dodge it', then by all means run the hell out of the blast radius or duck behind something that can take the hit dangit! Or hey if your fast enough feel free to throw it right back if your crazy.

I mean I woudlnt stage up the damage (Beyond chunky salsa effect from close quarters). But it's not like you can just 'dodge' a grenade or 'make it less accurate' just casue you tossed it into a small room where there's a guy with an MG. And if the blast raidus is bigger than the room, how exactly can you dodge this again? Cause i mean if your effectively targeting a 'space in the room' ok fine, so we'll assume your aiming for 'center of the room'. You make your roll get your hits and oh nooes! it fell short/went too far! roll distance from point/direction it rolled in. Oh noes! It's against the wall now! BOOM!

Ok so now the grenade went off on the other side of the room from where the guy is, but the blast radius is still big enough to catch him in the edge of it. How exactly is this unfair/unrealistic?

[hyzmarca]

Well, you see, when it explodes you dodge between the shockwaves and shards of shrapnel.

[Kesslan]

[hyzmarca]

Perhaps my sarcasm should be a little clearer. Dodging between shockwaves and shrapnel is only a valid choice if you are playing Keanu: The RPG and your character has The One positive quality.

In my opinion, it is far better to disallow specific targets for area attacks except for impact-detonated weapons. If the impact-detonated weapon is targeted at an individual then it can be staged up but a successful dodge will cause full scatter. Otherwise, a specific point in space is chosen, success reduce scatter, damage can never be staged up, and the explosion cannot be dodged. The only way to protect against an area attack is to put a barrier between you and the attack or run out of its radius fast enough (or throw it back if it is a timed grenade).

The advantage of grenades is that you can't exactly dodge them. With genades being less effective than bullets there is really no reason for anyone to get six extra cyberarms and octuple-wield MGL-12s.

[Kesslan]

Heh point taken. So then is it general consensus that it's best to just say. Ok your in the radius of the <insert AOE attack here>, do something or soak damage?

[RunnerPaul]

That's how I like to handle it. It makes it easier for one side to take out the other, but I really don't have a problem with that.

It also helps to keep in mind the context of grenades. If it's the runners using the grenades, then the job just turned loud and messy, and you can expect Lone Star or whatever corporate security force has law enforcement jurisdiction is going to be sending a couple vans of swat team in response. As for security using them on runners, they typically won't, due to not wanting to risk damage to the property they're supposed to be protecting, but there are always a few exceptions that any runner team would have to consider.

[SCARed]

btw: as for dodging AOE-attacks: well, i think it should aslo depend on the enviroment: in a blank hallway with nowhere to hide, dodging an grenade blast (or fireball, toxic wave, ...) doesn't make much sense. but if the grenade is tossed inside room, there CAN be tables, desks or other stuff that might give cover.
to sum up: maybe the GM should give modifiers for the dodge roll.

as for throwing a grenade to just a point in the room, rather than at a person: where is the difference? (besides, that the point is unable to dodge at all)
throw the grenade, make the test to determin scatter, then look where it goes of. and from that point, determine the blast effect.

if you want to hit a difficult point (throw a grenade into a vehicle through a small window or something), apply modifiers as if the pint has cover.

[noneuklid]

Also keep in mind that "Dodge," in the context of a grenade, means "Move." IOW, when you're done diving for cover (or even just out of the way), you're not in the same physical place you started up at.