 Is there such a thing as a 'good' Dragon? |
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 Dec 22 2006, 10:11 AM
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#51
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Immoral Elf  Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486  |
I was going to say that very thing. Or at least express my disagreement with the general concensus of Golden Snout as being the epitomy of evil. |
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Dec 22 2006, 10:38 AM
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#52
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeah, he's not evil. he's... hungry. he doesn't hurt you because he likes your pain, he hurts you because it's the most efficient way to take what he wants from you.
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Dec 22 2006, 10:40 AM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Well, while I wont exactly dispute this line of thought, I sort of disagree with it making him even 'relatively' good. Of course could be an entirely skewed point of view. I mean to me he seems to wheel and deal, allways trying to come out ontop. He's petty and vindictive, he'll go out of his way to make sure people who have crossed him even completely unawares that they were doing so die, or suffer horribly as a result. And while he may consider you a 'worthy opponent' that in no way means he's going to spare you. Oh no, quite the opposite, he's going to do his damnest to crush you. In otherwords, he's totally dishonourable. To me it seems you cant trust a single thing he says or does. Even those who honestly and loyally will follow him unto death and worship the very ground he walks on shall ultimately be crushed, and tossed away once they 'know too much' or some such thing. I more along the lines agree with MFB's thinking that Lofwyr is the sort of 'ultimate predator'. And ontop of it has one nasty temper. He's not accidentally cruel at all, he's quite deliberately so. Time and time again this is deliberately pointed to infact. I mean with alot of other dragons it just seems to be a 'means to an end'. It's not anythign personal. But with Lofwyr it is, very much so. I mean he seems to be the sort that if he were going incognito on the subway and you accidentally bump into him with an only half mumbled apology (never mind that perhaps you've had an extremely bad day, you've just been fired, and you havent had enough sleep for several days) that he'd do his utmost to further ruin your life, befor ehaving some one litterally rip your still beating heart from your chest several years down the road as a result for your 'slight' against him. That at least, is my read on him. |
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Dec 22 2006, 10:46 AM
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#54
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
People are wary of screwing with S.K. because of Lofwyr's very public reputation of ruthless reciprocity. Seems like a strong, and quite valid business tactic to me. Loffie strikes me as being quite pragmatic.
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Dec 22 2006, 10:49 AM
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#55
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i see Lofwyr more as the type to manipulate things such that you get fired after a week-long bout of insomnia, then deliberately stand next to you on the subway so you bump into him. and then, he owns you.
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Dec 22 2006, 10:51 AM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Well he's got a strong reputation for it, largely because he does go to some realy crazy extreme lengths to 'punish' those who have crossed him even inadvertantly. There's quite a few references to such events in the various bits of cannon information from the books (such as CD).
However, you may be right that most of this is actualy done deliberately not for cruelty's sake itself, but as a rather effective way of scaring off alot of the competition that would otherwise be far more tempted to take a few swings at him. However, his total ruthelessnes in doing so without any care for those it affects, ultimately to me places him in the 'bad guy' catagory. I mean overall he rules through fear and an Iron fist. That is not the sign of some one who is good. Though it could be that he sees it as such and that may be his 'ultimate' intent. But I doubt it, especially given his total lack of any care what so ever for the heavy ammounts of polution his companies create. Thats something a good many of his fellow dragons dislike him for. |
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Dec 22 2006, 11:00 AM
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#57
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
If you take the long (and admittedly non human and non humane) view, Golden Snout and S.K. may be one of metahumanty's (and dragonkind's) best hopes in the future Scourge.
If you consider Dunkleberry to be Good™ (even if only in the most abstract of connotations), then keep in mind that, despite all the associated bullshit, he did deliberately 'pass the torch' to Lofwyr. There's much more to the new Loremaster than meets the eye. |
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Dec 22 2006, 11:09 AM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Sort of a weed out the weak, get the survivors used to pain, adversity, hardship so that when the time comes the races as a whole will survive because they have endured worse?
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Dec 22 2006, 12:57 PM
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#59
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
No, that's more up Deus' alley. More like through the advancement of technology and R&D in specific but seemingly varied directions, and the coordination of its future use. |
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Dec 22 2006, 01:20 PM
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#60
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Tell a pack of runners that they are running against <some other company> and they say, "sure". Tell them they are running against SK and they say, "um, erm" or "100K, up front". Sounds like his reputation is pretty effective, dosen't it? Now are runners the good guys? Is having a bunch of people break into your offices, kill your employees, and setal your stuff a good thing? If you have to brutally kill a few guys to stop that from happening, is it worth it? Come on, if Lofwyr shows up at your door, you did something to bring him there. It's not, "I was just strolling next to the Rhine one day when Lofwyr saw me and decide I had the prettiest ass in Germany..." The scourge is comming and no two bit runners or corps or companies that interfere with the plan can be tolerated. If getting the repuation of a horrible killer is the simplest way to keep them off your back then so be it, bigger things are at stake.
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Dec 22 2006, 02:13 PM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Except that Lofwyr has screwed over alot more than just runners. I mean runners I can understand. Their criminals anyway one way or another. But he screws over plenty of well meaning 'wageslaves' himself.
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Dec 22 2006, 02:33 PM
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#62
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
In what way? Can you give some specific examples?
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Dec 22 2006, 02:39 PM
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#63
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
how 'bout dumping hazardous waste? Although the kill switch on the Eurogrids was way cool.
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Dec 22 2006, 02:41 PM
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#64
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
That just doesn't ring any bells on my Evil Meter. |
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Dec 22 2006, 02:44 PM
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#65
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Oh I'm not saying he's evil. II consider him the ultimate pragmatist. But that doesn't mean he doesn't screw people's lives.
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Dec 22 2006, 03:20 PM
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#66
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
No difference to any other corp in the 6th world.
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Dec 22 2006, 03:26 PM
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#67
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Except that Lowfyr micromanages an entire freaking AAA Megacorp
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Dec 22 2006, 03:28 PM
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#68
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
That's a point I never believed. I mean, he knows the salary of every employee, knows which division has to hire what people, which sub-division of a sub-division made what profit over the last 5 years etcppp.
Nah. |
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Dec 22 2006, 03:35 PM
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#69
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
He knows your insurance premiums too. :]
just you wait 'till we get to those internal audits. Heads will roll... :spin: |
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Dec 22 2006, 03:54 PM
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#70
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
:grinbig:
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Dec 22 2006, 04:37 PM
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#71
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Ye gods. I find it hard to believe that not one dragon anywhere considers themselves evil under whatever ethical system they, or dragons in general, subscribe to. That's like saying no person sees themselves as evil, which is just... stupid.
Even when Machiavelli advised to rule through fear over love, it was for an ultimate goal of benevolence and the restoration of a Florentine (and then Italian) republic. Lofwyr seems to be based on the same principle.
Yeah... "Cool." That's the word I keep thinking of. |
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Dec 22 2006, 04:49 PM
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#72
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...more like 500K up front + total Phenotypic Alteration (to the genetic level Not at a clinc associated in any way with SK of course) + complete Identity change (performed by someone of Fastjack's calibre) afterwards. Then, maybe, I would consider it. |
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Dec 22 2006, 05:57 PM
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#73
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yep. Lofwyr respects Strength in whatever form. That's why he keeps Wendigos and Toxic Magicians on payroll. They are strong. The question remains though: does having a completely understandable self-interested motivation for feeding your minions on human flesh make you any less evil for doing so? -Frank |
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Dec 22 2006, 06:16 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Flesh is simply dead meat -- the fact that it once was a human being is irrelevent to that fact. Why is it any more evil then feeding people beef?
The only way to make that "evil" is the acquisition thereof. And even then, it's not certain. SK is a megacorp. Lots of people. People die. If, after the service, the body is given unto SK for disposal (aka, cremation), what does it matter if a certain amount less makes it to the cremator? Note: I am not advocating treating people as food. I am simply pointing out that to a dragon, it is in no way even resembling of cannibalism, and for wendigos, ghouls, and the like, it is a dietary requirement. As such, it cannot be considered evil in and of itself, without any additional considerations. There are a whole mess of other considerations that weigh in on the evil scale, but the act itself is not evil. |
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Dec 22 2006, 06:33 PM
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#75
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
Man, I should go pick up SotF, Hestaby never came off that nasty in DotSW.
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