 Is there such a thing as a 'good' Dragon? |
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 Dec 22 2006, 06:49 PM
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#76
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Prime Runner  Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665  |
That's a valid argument for Ghouls and I can even buy it. The treatment of corpses is a question of utility. Disposal of corpses limits infections and eases suffering, and ghouls need to ea corpses to survive so feeding corpses to ghouls as a means of disposal can be considered a utilitarian concern. Right, we all understand that argument. Wendigos eat people while they are still alive, and use mind control powers to force those people to perform acts that are revolting to their moral code before consuming them, relishing in the horror and suffering they cause before they devour their victims bit by bit in a painful orgy of death and torture. Really. That's how they live, and there's just no positive spin you can put on that. Ghouls are tragic, Wendigos are Evil. Lofwyr works with the latter. -Frank |
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Dec 22 2006, 07:56 PM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
FrankTrollman: I see no difference. They're both infected by something beyond their control. One becomes a predator, one becomes a scavenger. And even then, a wendigo only needs a "token amount" for essence drain (direct from critters, "Essence Drain"). A token amount could very well be taken from a single, lethal attack. Not nice, not pleasant to contemplate, but necessairy for their survival. So how is it different from any other predator, other then they can rationally choose their victim for reasons beyond "availability"?
Yes, a wendigo should be feared, and the fact that most of them do in fact create twisted cannibal cults is a sign that they tend towards evil. But it's not their nature that makes them evil. |
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Dec 22 2006, 08:11 PM
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#78
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Draining a point of Essence requires an extended test that takes several minutes. their lethal attack involves sucking 6 Essence points. Their feeding requires them to spend upwards of 20 minutes torturing people to death.
Sure, they have no control over it and it's tragic and shit, but holy fuck! They torture people to death, that's what they do. A ghoul can survive his entire life without once hurting a single person. A Wendigo can't. By definition their survival requires the brutal murder of metahumans through a cruel and extended process. They are the enbemy of humanity. They are evil. There is no negotiating with them, there is no appeasing of them. They are bad, and there's no silver lining. And Lofwyr works with them because they are powerful and they only torture people to death that he doesn't know or care about. -Frank |
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Dec 22 2006, 08:24 PM
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#79
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Bah. It's just that orks are evil, so orks with HMHVV are especially evil.
Makes you wonder why he doesn't work with insect spirits. |
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Dec 22 2006, 08:25 PM
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#80
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
So no, they don't torture them to death. They do kill them by eating them, but the victim enjoys it. And that's before you look at some of the other rules in there. Again, they aren't, by their very nature, evil. It's how they choose to act that would make them evil -- by the rules, it's just as possible for a wendigo to subsist entirely on essence drain, with the victim as other beings with essence drain. Most don't, but it's entirely possible for them to do so. A wendigo that hunts other wendigo, and subsists on that wendigo's willing servents, is not evil. A wendigo that creates its own cult, feeds it innocents, and then eats the cult, moves to a new country and starts over, on the other hand, is evil. There is a lightyears of difference between the two. |
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Dec 22 2006, 08:37 PM
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#81
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Same rules are in SR4.
Likewise, same in SR4. Creating cannibal cults =/= torturing people to death for 20 minutes. I'm not even sure where 20 minutes or this 6-pt essence drain attack comes from just from perusing the entry for wendigos and essence drain. |
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Dec 22 2006, 09:03 PM
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#82
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No it isn't.
Wendigos need to suck Essence out of people and they need to eat people. They need to do both things. There are no "good day walking half wendigos" - there are evil wendigos and there are dead wendigos.
Because he does not believe that he has anything that they want sufficiently to make them actually work on his behalf. Damien Knight, however, does. And it would seem that Damien is totally right. -Frank |
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Dec 22 2006, 09:21 PM
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#83
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
What does Damien Knight have?
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Dec 22 2006, 09:29 PM
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#84
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Bugs. Queen Bugs.
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Dec 22 2006, 09:47 PM
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#85
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
At the close of the Bug City shenanigans, Ares captured a lot of insect mages. Some of them were never seen again and some of them were next seen in Ares uniforms. And Ares continued to kill hives - just other hives. Flash forward to today. Some mages pen up gateways from Eve to the Hive. Then ares troopers rush in and kill queens on their home plane - destroying a hive forever. Who do you think is opening those gates? Of course, the answer is "Insect Mages" - they are the only people who can. And they open up the gateways to allow Ares to destroy other hives. It's win/win. The hives under Ares get:
Ares gets:
And this is all possible because Damien Knight invested really a lot into xeno psychology and the ability to hit hives hard enough that they had to respect him and come to the negotiating table. Lofwyr hasn't done that. He doesn't have a meaningful stick to present to the insects ("If you don't do what I say, I'll keep fighting you as ineffectually as I'm doing right now!"), and doesn't understand their politics well enough to be able to offer a carrot they might accept. -Frank |
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Dec 22 2006, 09:57 PM
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#86
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Source? ~J |
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Dec 22 2006, 10:16 PM
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#87
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Street Magic, page 111. And sorry, the station they travel from is called Eden. My mistake. -Frank |
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Dec 22 2006, 10:17 PM
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#88
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Street Magic, though the staging point is called Eden. [Edit: Frank posted while I was posting] |
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Dec 23 2006, 04:37 AM
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#89
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
page 88 of CD is one, especially the entry about Lofwyr specifically. Also there's several runs in various SR books where S-K is the sponsor and there's several references to him 'testing' security at the facility by hiring runners to hit it, even if it's a flat out all lethal deal on both sides. The runners may be 'criminals' but the sec guards are for the most part, very likely not. There's a few other references here and there in other books, though I cant recall any specifics currently. I'm not necessarily saying he's worse for this than anyone else, but he has got a reputation for it that outmatches as far as I can tell, that of any of the other dragons. |
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Dec 23 2006, 04:54 AM
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#90
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I suspected as much. ~J |
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Dec 23 2006, 04:55 AM
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#91
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 571 Joined: 9-January 05 From: In the 9th circle of hell Member No.: 6,950 |
I think as far as good and evil goes, old Golden Snout isn't really any wose than other dragons, he's just doesn't hide what he does. This is either because he doesn't give a devil rat's hoop what people think or it is a stratagy to discorage people from trying anything against him. Possibly both.
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Dec 23 2006, 05:12 AM
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#92
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Well he certainly strikes me as the 'doesnt care what others think' type. Afterall while all the megas polute to one extent or another S-K is the only one that blatantly does so to a comparatively extreme extent, with Lofwyr's full knowledge and obvious consent.
Not all dragons are like this. Hestaby I belive it is, for example very much cares about the environment. Alot of the others at least put up the pretense to care, afterall it DOES damage/affect the manasphere and background counts etc. So it affects them just as much if not more so than everyone else. |
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Dec 23 2006, 06:28 AM
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#93
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Read Critters, essence drain. Wendigo are not in the SR3 Corebook, which is the only one I possess and the only one I'm willing to. Whole other issue there, which I won't bother going into. The relevent paragraph says that anyone with essence drain can make an opposed essence test with anyone else possessing energy drain, and the winner absorbs. It goes on to detail that it still requires time, but does not require a strong emotional presence. Since the entire "requiring a transfer of physical material" is a throwaway line, it is perfectly reasonable and valid to rule that it is also negated -- it may or may not be, that's irrelevent. It's still perfectly feasable to consist entirely on eating other wendigos and their willing followers. Likewise, the Critters entry gives no dietary requirement. And even if it DID, dietary requirement would only put them on par with ghouls. If, in your game, you want all wendigos to be evil or dead, binary option, that's your choice. On the other hand, that position is not, in and of itself, the required position by canon. By canon, it is possible, however unlikely, for a wendigo to be something other than absolute evil. |
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Dec 23 2006, 06:36 AM
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#94
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Not sure what the issue is and not particularly interested, but I just wanted to note that Critters is available as a free PDF in case your issue involves the spending of money on books other than the core. Or I might just be misunderstanding, things have gotten pretty hazy this past hour or so. ~Zzzzzzz |
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Dec 23 2006, 07:42 AM
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#95
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
I assume he's referring to the other corebook. You know, that one.
So where does the torturing people to death part come in?
... |
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Dec 23 2006, 08:02 AM
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#96
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Re: Lofwyr and Bugs...
I think Lofwyr really has the bigger stick. Damien Knight has hit squads and captured Insect Mages. Lofwyr is a Great Western Dragon, the Loremaster of all Dragons, and has insecticide enough to scourge any plane he so chooses clean of insect life. I'm reasonably certain that if he so choose, he could open a gate to the Bug Plane (or else mind control an Insect Mage into doing it for him), and then bombard the place with bug bombs, followed up by personal extermination. He may not have a carrot, but he is the biggest stick in the world. Also, I woulden't run against Saeder-Krupp. Nothing nor nobody could get that deal taken. Not even if the Corporate Court declared an Omega on S-K and promised me that my run would be backed up by orbital bombardment on my command and close air support, and they were paying me 100,000,000 :nuyen: What good's money if you ain't around to use it? |
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Dec 23 2006, 08:05 AM
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#97
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Eh, for that much I'd do it. I'd also pass standing orders for everyone to blow up old golden snout the moment he was found. Great dragons are still mortal. Hit them with enough firepower and they -will- go down. Wont be an easy fight by any means of course.
If you do it right you have one verifiably dead dragon, if you fail, well your dead. But that generally goes without saying all too often in the shadows anyway. |
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Dec 23 2006, 08:16 AM
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#98
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
That's not really the point. Maybe Loffie could do all that you say ... and I think you rather overestimate his abilities a touch. The point is thatt he hasn't done it, nor has he shown any inclination to do so. He doesn't comprehend the 'Carrot' portion of Frank's explanation as it pertains to the Bugs as individuals, so couldn't pull that part of the whole deal off anyway.
The thing is that the Bugs hate the Horrors. They can and should be a very potent weapon if harnessed properly. Loffie knows this, the other Great Dragons and IEs know this, yet the only organization doing something about it is Ares. This brings up a few questions. The most important is not how Knight knows this stuff, as that is easily covered by his association with Dunklestein. The most important question in my mind is 'Why does he care?' As a mundane human, he won't even come close to being around when the Scourge happens, even with the most extensive of Leonization treatments. This preocupation, along with a couple of other strange hints dropped throughout Shadowrun's history, leads me to believe that good old Damian may not quite be exactly what he seems ... and hasn't been himself for a long time (if ever). |
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Dec 23 2006, 08:26 AM
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#99
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
That or he may have made a deal with a free spirit. There is under the new magic book for SR4 t he ability to make one of two pacts with a free spirit that gives you immunity to age. As long as the spirt lives, so shall you. Assumably when it dies you resume aging normaly. I dont consider this all that likely but it is a possiblity.
Also from 2XS it might well be that the bugs are not necessarily being coerced, but rather forced. It's really hard to say, though I doubt Ares can keep the lid on the genie jar forever. So something will leak out eventually, of that I have no doubt. |
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Dec 23 2006, 08:39 AM
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#100
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
haha, check this. i remember a while back, someone suggested that the bug totems had somehow been deposed by some sort of powerful impersonator, which neatly explains why bug spirits are (for lack of a better term) evil despite being just as 'natural' as any other animal totem. maybe Damien's got a deal with a spirit of the original bug totems.
there are holes, and it's a bit too GvE for me, but it's kinda neat. |
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