Article for flavour on Jinns - Dumpshock Forums

Article for flavour on Jinns, describes muslim beliefs of Jinns

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Backgammon

Dec 22 2006, 04:14 PM

Post #1

Ain Soph Aur

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QUOTE

Born of fire

Dec 19th 2006 | QARDHO
From The Economist print edition
Our correspondent travels to Somalia and Afghanistan in search of jinn

THERE is a cleft in a stone hill outside Qardho, in northern Somalia, which even the hardest gunmen and frankincense merchants avoid. In the cool dark, out of the bleached sunshine, there is a pit, a kind of Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole, which is said to swirl down into the world of jinn. Locals say jinn—genies, that is—fade in and out above the pit. Sometimes they shift into forms of ostriches and run out over the desert scrub.

The Bible holds that God created angels and then made man in his own image. The Koran states that Allah fashioned angels from light and then made jinn from smokeless fire. Man was formed later, out of clay. Jinn disappointed Allah, not least by climbing to the highest vaults of the sky and eavesdropping on the angels. Yet Allah did not annihilate them. No flood closed over their heads. Jinn were willed into existence, like man, to worship Allah and were preserved on earth for that purpose, living in a parallel world, set at such an angle that jinn can see men, but men cannot see jinn.

Less educated Muslims remain fearful of jinn. Hardly a week passes in the Muslim world without a strange story concerning them. Often the tales are foolish and melancholy. In August, for instance, Muslims in the Kikandwa district of central Uganda grew feverish over reports of jinn haunting and raping women in the district. So when a young woman stumbled out of the forest one day, unkempt and deranged, she was denounced as a jinn. Villagers beat her almost to death. Police finished the job with six bullets at close range. The young woman called out for her children in her last moments. An investigation revealed her to be from a neighbouring district. She had spent days without food or water, searching for her missing husband. Editorials in Ugandan newspapers called on the government formally to deny the existence of jinn.

That would be divisive. Although a few Islamic scholars have over the ages denied the existence of jinn, the consensus is that good Muslims should believe in them. Some Islamic jurists consider marriage between jinn and humans to be lawful. There is a similar provision for the inheritance of jinn property. Sex during menstruation is an invitation to jinn and can result in a woman bearing a jinn child. According to the Koran, the Prophet Muhammad preached to bands of jinn. Some converted to Islam. This is how jinn describe their condition in the Koran:
And among us [jinn] there are righteous folk and among us there are those far from that. We are sects, having different rules. And we know that we cannot escape from Allah in the earth, nor can we escape by flight. And when we heard the guidance [of the Koran], we believed therein, and who so believeth in his Lord, he feareth neither loss nor oppression. And there are among us some who have surrendered to Allah and there are among us some who are unjust.

In Somalia and Afghanistan clerics matter-of-factly described to your correspondent the range of jinn they had encountered, from the saintly to the demonic; those that can fly, those that crawl, plodding jinn, invisible jinn, gul with vampiric tendencies (from which the English word ghoul is taken), and shape-shifters recognisable in human form because their feet are turned backwards. Occasionally the clerics fell into a trance. Afterwards they claimed their apparently bare rooms had filled with jinn seeking favours or release from amulet charms.
A parallel universe

Although Somalia and Afghanistan have different religious traditions (Somalia being more relaxed), jinn belief is strong in both countries. War-ravaged, with similarly rudimentary education systems, both have a tradition of shrines venerating local saints where women can pray. Women are supposed to be more open to jinn, particularly illiterate rural women: by some accounts education is a noise, a roaring of thought, which jinn cannot bear. Sometimes women turn supposed jinn possession to their own advantage and become fortune-tellers. Among the most popular questions asked of such women is: “Will my husband take a second wife?” The shrines are often little more than a carved niche in a rock, with colourful prayer flags tied to nearby trees. Jinn are said to be attracted to the ancient geography of shrines, many of which predate Islam; as some have it, the shrines were attracted to the jinn.

Islam teaches that jinn resemble men in many ways: they have free will, are mortal, face judgment and fill hell together. Jinn and men marry, have children, eat, play, sleep and husband their own animals. Islamic scholars are in disagreement over whether jinn are physical or insubstantial in their bodies. Some clerics have described jinn as bestial, giant, hideous, hairy, ursine. Supposed yeti sightings in Pakistan's Chitral are believed by locals to be of jinn. These kinds of jinn can be killed with date or plum stones fired from a sling.
Hardly a week passes in the Muslim world without a strange story concerning them. Often the tales are foolish and melancholy

But to more scholarly clerics jinn are little more than an energy, a pulse form of quantum physics perhaps, alive at the margins of sleep or madness, and more often in the whispering of a single unwelcome thought. An extension of this electric description of jinn is that they are not beings at all but thoughts that were in the world before the existence of man. Jinn reflect the sensibilities of those imagining them, just as in Assyrian times they were taken to be the spirits responsible for manias, who melted into the light at dawn.
When a donkey brays

The English word genie, from an unrelated French root, is now too soft and gooey with Disney's Aladdin to catch the acid qualities attributed to jinn. Sepideh Azarbaijani-Moghaddam, a specialist on Afghanistan who has undertaken anthropological research on jinn belief, reckons she may once have been in the presence of jinn. She was riding with others in the Afghan province of Badakhshan. It was towards dusk. They came down into a valley forested at the bottom. The horses tensed. “Suddenly from out of the trees I felt myself being watched by non-human entities.” A cold fear overcame her, “the fear of losing the faculty of reason”. A Kabul cleric describes this sort of feeling as a shock at the existence of otherness. Animals sense it also: when a donkey brays, it is said to be seeing a jinn.

Unbelieving jinn, those who resisted the Koran, are shaytan, demons, “firewood for hell”. Many Muslims see the devil as a jinn. Some reckon the snake in the Garden of Eden was a shape-shifting jinn. All this may yet play a part in the war on terrorism. Factions in Somalia and Afghanistan have accused their enemies of being backed not only by the CIA but by malevolent jinn. One theory in Afghanistan holds that the mujahideen, “two-legged wolves”, scared the jinn out into the world, causing disharmony. It is jinn, they say, who whisper into the ears of suicide-bombers.

Sheikh Mubarak Ali Gilani, a Pakistani cleric connected with a jihadist group, Jamaat al-Fuqra, has given warning to America that its missiles will be misdirected by jinn. It was all very different in the days of King Solomon, who was said to have had control over jinn and used them as masons in building the temple in Jerusalem. The Jewish influence over jinn is strong. It is probably no coincidence that the inscription on Aladdin's lamp, which bound the jinn, was engraved with Hebraic characters. Believers in abduction by aliens like to think jinn are aliens; some of the more confrontational Muslim clerics dismiss claimed apparations of the Virgin Mary as the work of jinn.
The jinn demanded a cigarette, then another, and then it became impatient and swallowed lighted cigarettes whole

The story of Ahmed Shah Masoud, the commander of Afghanistan's Northern Alliance, clearly shows up the link between jinn and myth-making. Masoud resisted the Soviet Union and the Taliban from his base in the Panjshir valley until he was assassinated by al-Qaeda operatives on September 9th 2001. According to local legend, Muslim jinn were on his side. One of his fighters was said to have slain a dragon in a mountain lake during the Soviet occupation and to have brought the dragon's jewel to Masoud, with the help of Muslim jinn. In murdering Masoud, some Panjshiris say, Osama bin Laden declared war on Muslim jinn also. This is obvious, they say, from Mr bin Laden's insistence on division and violence.

Your correspondent spent a night with Masoud's former bodyguards in the Panjshir. The men were employed to look after Masoud's tomb. His office was locked. The bodyguards sat cross-legged on the floor of a room opposite. A kerosene lantern flickered. Machineguns were propped against the bed-rolls. A few men went outside. The first winter snow was falling on the jagged peaks that towered up on all sides. It was fiercely cold. A dog limped below, ears flat, tail between its legs. It whimpered. The men looked at the dog. “The jinn is still here,” one said. “Bismillah,” responded the others. They pointed out jinn settlements just below the snow-line on the mountain slopes. Inside, over plates of mutton and grey rice, tea, snuff and Korean cigarettes, they told the story of how the cook had been possessed by a jinn the week before. He was a devout man, they said, a non-smoker and illiterate. “He fell ill. When he recovered, he found he could speak and write in many languages. The jinn that was in him was well-travelled but also pushy. It demanded a cigarette, then another, and then it became impatient and swallowed lighted cigarettes whole.”

In Somalia, the port of Bossaso is famous for its sorcerers. Some of its ruling class claim to have intermarried with jinn long ago. On a recent visit your correspondent was taken to a metal shed at the edge of a slum where jinn were supposed to be banished from taking human form. The air inside the shed was thick with frankincense. There was a man cloaked in red cloth kneeling on the ground. A jinn was in him, a sorceress running the ceremony said, and indeed the man wore an eerie expression, as though a part of him was obscured. Young men jumped up and down around him, chanting and beating drums. The gunmen accompanying your correspondent were too scared to step into the shed. Later, walking away from the shed in hot sunshine, one of the gunmen insisted that he could see a jinn scavenging for bones in the dirt. There did not appear to be anything there.

from http://www.economist.com/world/displaystor...tory_id=8401289

lorechaser View Member Profile	Dec 22 2006, 04:17 PM Post #2
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168	Awesome. Mythology kicks so much ass. Although this quote at the beginning amused me greatly: "...which even the hardest gunmen and frankincense merchants avoid." Because I know that I consider those the two most hardcore types of people on the planet. And then this one: "...by some accounts education is a noise, a roaring of thought, which jinn cannot bear." We should be full of jinn over here in the US then.

SL James View Member Profile	Dec 22 2006, 04:40 PM Post #3
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473	Wow. I thought I'd read some crazy stuff before about them, but the Masoud story is just... Wow.

Slithery D View Member Profile	Dec 23 2006, 03:56 AM Post #4
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059	Tim Power's supernatural spy novel Declare is a good source of jinn stuff, some based on Islamic myth, some fun crap he made up himself. I've mentioned before it makes for a good SR type plot.

knasser View Member Profile	Dec 23 2006, 01:26 PM Post #5
Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636	Hum. There's obviously a lot of mention of Islam and muslims in there. In fact, Jinn, both the concept and the word, predate Islam. And while the Koran does refer to Jinn and is adhered to more in Islam than the Bible is in Christianity (I feel), jinn in modern Islam are kind of analoguous to demons in modern Christianity. On the whole they're considered about as much as demons, at least in the literal cloven-hoofed horror movie sense. The article refers to Somalia and Afghanistan.

Backgammon

Dec 23 2006, 03:50 PM

Post #6

Ain Soph Aur

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QUOTE

Less educated Muslims remain fearful of jinn.

(bold mine)

Obviously, like all supersticious beliefs, the uneducated believe in it much more fervently then the educated people. But then again, what's the last stat about what percentage of Americans believe in angels? Probably the same with Jinns (altough the Muslims do have angels as well). A certain strata of the educated class must have some sort of belief in Jinns, without it being as much as an obsession as a gun warrior of Somalia.

Charon

Dec 23 2006, 05:45 PM

Post #7

Running Target

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QUOTE (Backgammon @ Dec 23 2006, 10:50 AM)

Obviously, like all supersticious beliefs, the uneducated believe in it much more fervently then the educated people. But then again, what's the last stat about what percentage of Americans believe in angels?

As long as someone with the education level of a police officer doesn't start shooting a delirious woman in need of medical assistance because he believes she is possessed by a fallen angel, you'll be all right.

That being said, the US is a bit of an oddity ; no other countires with comparable education and development level has such widespread belief in the supernatural.

Faelan View Member Profile	Dec 23 2006, 06:07 PM Post #8
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 584 Joined: 15-April 06 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 8,466	I hate to say it, but the U.S. was the dumping ground for Europe. They sure loved sending zealots over here, and many of our problems are rooted in various forms of christian fanaticism. In other words thank the Puritans.

SL James View Member Profile	Dec 23 2006, 06:22 PM Post #9
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473	How about cursing them to burn in Hell? Or is that just me?

Faelan View Member Profile	Dec 23 2006, 06:25 PM Post #10
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 584 Joined: 15-April 06 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 8,466	Hell would be too kind a fate. No its not just you.

SL James

Dec 24 2006, 12:38 AM

Post #11

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QUOTE (Faelan)

Hell would be too kind a fate.

Touché.

Charon

Dec 24 2006, 04:58 AM

Post #12

Running Target

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QUOTE (SL James)

QUOTE (Faelan @ Dec 23 2006, 12:25 PM)

Hell would be too kind a fate.

Touché.

Yeah, but since they invented it, who else should use it?

BrianL03 View Member Profile	Dec 24 2006, 05:59 AM Post #13
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 27-October 02 From: Chicago Containment Zone Member No.: 3,504	The Economist. Good read, good choice. I'm hoping to get a digital subscription for Christmas. As to the jinn, that's a rather interesting concept I could bring up even in my Bug City Chicago campaign with some of the Muslim residents, particularly Westside. Drop a few hooks for a run to placate some "jinn" that have been bothering a local mosque... could work, could work.

Eleazar View Member Profile	Dec 24 2006, 07:28 AM Post #14
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130	Some people should use some better discretion when posting about other's religions. Whether the reference is to Christianity or Muslim. The last thing anyone wants to see is this constructive thread getting derailed because someone from the other side feels obligated to defend their religion. You would only have yourselves to blame. Back to the topic at hand: I had never heard of Jinn before in my life. I have even talked to Muslims and never heard them ever mention it. Though I think it is kinda odd that Muslims wouldn't believe something that is in the Qur'an and if your Sunni the Sunnah. How really authoritative and holy can a book be to follower of the Qur'an and Sunnah if they think it is incorrect. Maybe if there are any Muslims on these forums, doubt it, they could PM me and explain this. I found this website doing a Google search. It gives some more information about Jinn. http://muttaqun.com/jinn.html From what I can tell, Jinn seem to be like angels but more of "free spirits". I would parallel them to the demons of Japanese lore. It seems these jinn first showed up in Arabian folklore and then were integrated into Islam. Another interesting tidbit is that Jinn are mortal and humans in certain circumstances can turn into one.

SL James

Dec 24 2006, 07:49 AM

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QUOTE (Eleazar)

Some people should use some better discretion when posting about other's religions. Whether the reference is to Christianity or Muslim. The last thing anyone wants to see is this constructive thread getting derailed because someone from the other side feels obligated to defend their religion. You would only have yourselves to blame.

Back to the topic at hand:

I had never heard of Jinn before in my life. I have even talked to Muslims and never heard them ever mention it. Though I think it is kinda odd that Muslims wouldn't believe something that is in the Qur'an and if your Sunni the Sunnah. How really authoritative and holy can a book be to follower of the Qur'an and Sunnah if they think it is incorrect.

Does not compute.

Charon

Dec 24 2006, 08:55 AM

Post #16

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QUOTE (SL James @ Dec 24 2006, 02:49 AM)

Does not compute.

:rotfl:

QUOTE

I had never heard of Jinn before in my life.

Everyone has heard of them but most are more familiar with the term "Genie" which is the more common translation.

Of course we have bastardized these in pop culture, which would probably then prompt some people to use the term "jinn" to distinguish them from the big blue guy granting wishes.

A "Shaitan (Adversary)" is a Jinn in the Qu'ran. Though apparently there is a distinction between Iblis the devil who is known as Shaitan (Satan) and a whole herd of unbeliveing jinns also called Shaitans. So I'm not sure whether or not Satan himself is considered a jinn.

Backgammon

Dec 24 2006, 05:49 PM

Post #17

Ain Soph Aur

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QUOTE (Eleazar)

I had never heard of Jinn before in my life. I have even talked to Muslims and never heard them ever mention it.

No offense, but that's an incredibly huge logical fallacy. The fact that you haven't heard about them doesn't make them unknowned to everyone else. And the fact that muslims you talked to didn't break conversation and say "Hey, by the way, did I ever tell you about Jinns?" doesn't mean much either.

SL James

Dec 24 2006, 10:15 PM

Post #18

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QUOTE (Backgammon @ Dec 24 2006, 11:49 AM)

QUOTE (Eleazar @ Dec 24 2006, 03:28 AM)

I had never heard of Jinn before in my life. I have even talked to Muslims and never heard them ever mention it.

No offense, but that's an incredibly huge logical fallacy. The fact that you haven't heard about them doesn't make them unknowned to everyone else. And the fact that muslims you talked to didn't break conversation and say "Hey, by the way, did I ever tell you about Jinns?" doesn't mean much either.

I prefer my response.

QUOTE (Charon)

A "Shaitan (Adversary)" is a Jinn in the Qu'ran. Though apparently there is a distinction between Iblis the devil who is known as Shaitan (Satan) and a whole herd of unbeliveing jinns also called Shaitans. So I'm not sure whether or not Satan himself is considered a jinn.

Or could be a fallen angel.

knasser

Dec 26 2006, 12:24 AM

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QUOTE (Eleazar @ Dec 24 2006, 07:28 AM)

Some people should use some better discretion when posting about other's religions. Whether the reference is to Christianity or Muslim. The last thing anyone wants to see is this constructive thread getting derailed because someone from the other side feels obligated to defend their religion. You would only have yourselves to blame.

There was a topic on spirits taking the forms of angels a while back that successfully remained very civil for quite a while, though I think it started getting heated eventually. With the more active moderation we now have on Dumpshock, I doubt the thread would have lasted as long as it did which in a way is a shame, as I think the best response to abuse is reasoned debate. Religion is a subject that requires a great deal of restraint and respect though. I brought up what I did because there are often huge misconceptions about Islam in Europe and the USA and I had a vague urge to highlight the limited scope of the article when it referred to "muslim" beliefs.

QUOTE (Eleazar)

Back to the topic at hand:

I had never heard of Jinn before in my life. I have even talked to Muslims and never heard them ever mention it. Though I think it is kinda odd that Muslims wouldn't believe something that is in the Qur'an and if your Sunni the Sunnah. How really authoritative and holy can a book be to follower of the Qur'an and Sunnah if they think it is incorrect. Maybe if there are any Muslims on these forums, doubt it, they could PM me and explain this.

I don't know if I still consider myself to be a muslim. I kind of do, but my personal beliefs have pretty much wandered beyond acceptability. I can answer your question but I have to preface it by pointing out that there are over a billion muslims in the World today, Any statement that "muslims think X" is almost certainly wrong for an absolute horde of people.

Regarding the specific question of muslims doubting something from the Koran, you've hit the nail on the head in that one isn't supposed to. The core belief of Islam is that the Prophet provided us with the exact word of God (Allah). To pick and choose which parts to believe is heretical. But that doesn't mean that every muslim sees Jinn around every corner. No more than the average Christian church goer is worried about the giants mentioned in the Old Testament or expects to see demons. The Koran refers to Jinn, and therefore Jinn must exist, but they aren't a necessary part of religious observance. They're simply not relevant to practicing your religion in the modern world. Now there are people in the USA today, who are concerned about demonic possession and as the article above pointed out, there are muslims who seek to placate jinn (which actually I would regard as heretical as it stinks of polytheism), but in both cases, there are many more who don't give it a thought and are no less Christian or Muslim.

QUOTE (Eleazar)

I found this website doing a Google search. It gives some more information about Jinn.
http://muttaqun.com/jinn.html

From what I can tell, Jinn seem to be like angels but more of "free spirits". I would parallel them to the demons of Japanese lore. It seems these jinn first showed up in Arabian folklore and then were integrated into Islam. Another interesting tidbit is that Jinn are mortal and humans in certain circumstances can turn into one.

Jinn do predate Islam. They are not angels. There is a definite distinction drawn between them. Jinn are more akin to fairies or otherworldly spirits than to angels.

QUOTE (Charon)

A "Shaitan (Adversary)" is a Jinn in the Qu'ran. Though apparently there is a distinction between Iblis the devil who is known as Shaitan (Satan) and a whole herd of unbeliveing jinns also called Shaitans. So I'm not sure whether or not Satan himself is considered a jinn.

The Koran frequently makes mention that Allah commanded the angels to bow before man but Iblis (Satan) did not. However, it elsewhere explcitly states that Iblis was of the Jinn. Therefore the interpretation is that Iblis was a Jinn. Should be mentioned that Satan means adversary so in several cases it refers to all those allied with or descended from Iblis as well as Iblis himself. Hence the confusion.

I would like to be able to answer any questions on Islam but I'm really not an authority. I hope this is of some help, though. I think in a Shadowrun setting, muslim magicians would very likely use the term Jinn to refer to spirits. Particularly of the fire variety.

<stereotype>
Peace be upon you.
</stereotype>

;)

-K.

Eleazar

Dec 26 2006, 12:51 AM

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QUOTE (Backgammon)

QUOTE (Eleazar @ Dec 24 2006, 03:28 AM)

I had never heard of Jinn before in my life. I have even talked to Muslims and never heard them ever mention it.

No offense, but that's an incredibly huge logical fallacy. The fact that you haven't heard about them doesn't make them unknowned to everyone else. And the fact that muslims you talked to didn't break conversation and say "Hey, by the way, did I ever tell you about Jinns?" doesn't mean much either.

Actually, considering how many Muslims I have spoken with it is surprising. Not only that, but how can you being any sort of judge of my experiences when you haven't a clue what perspective I am speaking from, or what those experiences are. Then, you go on to say I some how said or insinuated that because I didn't know about jinns it must be unknown to everyone else. I don't know where you pulled this out of. No where in my post did I even say such a thing, nor was it even my intention. This is very clearly seen in my post. Secondly, you go on to say that me never discussing jinn with a Muslim doesn't mean very much at all. My question is, how the heck would you even know? As far as you know I could be well integrated into the Muslim community and speak with Muslims everyday. Would it then not be of surprise that I never heard of the Muslim jinn? Of course you didn't think about any of this because your aim wasn't to be rational or logical, but rather seemingly have a rebuttal to a post which you are seemingly offended or "roused up" by. For whatever reason I don't know why.

You tried to be witty and retort what I said for who knows what reason. I have no problem with someone disagreeing with what I said, but that was way out in left field. I don't know what your were trying to accomplish with that post.

Charon:
Of course I have heard of genies, and yes I know jinn had their roots in Arabian lore, as I stated in my previous post. I was speaking about the topic at hand, Muslim jinn. I didn't feel the need to state, "I had never heard of MUSLIM jinn before". The Muslim part should be implied because that is exactly what this topic is about. In the sense I used the word it could only be in reference to the Muslim kind.

Knasser:
My post was in no way in reference to any of your posts. I guess that is the problem with making such a general and ambiguous statement. I didn't want to point to anyone directly, but opted for a friendly reminder. Thank you for your response and corrections.

Backgammon

Dec 26 2006, 05:23 AM

Post #21

Ain Soph Aur

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QUOTE

Actually, considering how many Muslims I have spoken with it is surprising

No, it isn't. Unless you specifically ask somone about a mythological belief, it's not very likely they're gonna bring it up out of the blue.

QUOTE

Not only that, but how can you being any sort of judge of my experiences when you haven't a clue what perspective I am speaking from, or what those experiences are.

It did cross my mind maybe you're an anthopological or theological student, but since you didn't mention it in your post, there's no reason for me to think you have any sort of special knowledge. If you are some sort of authority on Muslim beliefs, then, well, you're not a very good one is the only conclusion I can draw.

QUOTE

Then, you go on to say I some how said or insinuated that because I didn't know about jinns it must be unknown to everyone else.

Then I aknowledge that it was a misunderstanding, but you DID insinuate it, in the way your post was written. Since this is obviously not apparent to you, here is what you did: 1) claim you never heard of them 2) post additionnal references explaining the basis of Jinns because you never heard of them. Hence the insinuation of "i never heard of them, so no one else must have neither".

QUOTE

Secondly, you go on to say that me never discussing jinn with a Muslim doesn't mean very much at all. My question is, how the heck would you even know? As far as you know I could be well integrated into the Muslim community and speak with Muslims everyday.

See first paragraph above.

QUOTE

Would it then not be of surprise that I never heard of the Muslim jinn?

No, it wouldn't. See first paragraph.

QUOTE

Of course you didn't think about any of this because your aim wasn't to be rational or logical, but rather seemingly have a rebuttal to a post which you are seemingly offended or "roused up" by.

Now you're talking out of your ass. It was both rationnal and logical AND a rebuttal to a post that rubbed me the wrong way, due to my perception of you arrogance. But it turns out you just weren't aware of what you were saying. So don't worry about it. It was a misunderstanding.

Charon

Dec 26 2006, 06:37 AM

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QUOTE (Eleazar @ Dec 25 2006, 07:51 PM)

Charon:
Of course I have heard of genies, and yes I know jinn had their roots in Arabian lore, as I stated in my previous post. I was speaking about the topic at hand, Muslim jinn. I didn't feel the need to state, "I had never heard of MUSLIM jinn before". The Muslim part should be implied because that is exactly what this topic is about. In the sense I used the word it could only be in reference to the Muslim kind.

First of all, you said : "I had never heard of Jinn". You didn't say : "I know of jinns but I never heard that they were part of the Qu'ran."

Secondly, there is no "Muslim jinn" as opposed to pre-Islamic Jinn. It's the same jinn! If you know of pre-Islamic jinn, you usually know they made their way in Islam too. especially since most of the tales of jinn that have survived to this day have been written by muslims. It's kind of hard for me to assume the rare case of a man who heard of the first part but not the full tale and presume that's your position since you categorically said : "I had never heard of jinn" as an opening statement.

So that rebuttal makes no sense to me.

Eleazar View Member Profile	Dec 26 2006, 11:18 PM Post #23
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130	Charon: Are you saying genies are the same exact thing as the jinn of the Islam faith? If you are saying this, and this is correct, then I agree. However, I am not sure genies and the jinn of the Islam faith are the same exact thing as I gather from what I have read. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Slump View Member Profile	Dec 27 2006, 12:11 AM Post #24
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 295 Joined: 10-July 05 Member No.: 7,492	I would imagine that the classic three wishes lamp dwelling genie is just a bastardization of a specific variety of jinns, or even a specific jinn. Kinda like how both a numbers runner and a Don are both mafia, but one is not representative of the other.

Charon

Dec 27 2006, 12:43 AM

Post #25

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QUOTE (Eleazar @ Dec 26 2006, 06:18 PM)

Charon:
Are you saying genies are the same exact thing as the jinn of the Islam faith? If you are saying this, and this is correct, then I agree. However, I am not sure genies and the jinn of the Islam faith are the same exact thing as I gather from what I have read. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Exact same thing?

Is Robin Hood from "Prince of Thieves" with Costner the exact same thing as Robin from "The Adventures of Robin Hood" with Flynn? And are any of those exactly the same as Robin Hood as portrayed in Ivanhoe? And what of the 17th century legends? Or earlier versions?

But it's all Robin Hood.

So yeah, a Genie from tales like "A thousand an one night" are the same as jinns from the Qu'ran even if they are not used and interpreted exactly the same way by their authors. Genie being simply a translation of jinn.

It's all jinn.

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