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> Halving Implant Essence, I'm just not getting it.
OneTrikPony
post Dec 24 2006, 10:15 AM
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So I'm building a street sam elf I like to call Twinkie.

Twinkie goes to the cyber doc and has him install some bioware
Synaptic booster #1 for .5 essence
Adrenaline Pump #2 for 1.5 essence
Ortho Skin #2 for .5 essence
Bone dencity augmentation #2 for .6 essence
He now has 3.1 essence points of bioware.

So later Twinkie decides that Orks beat up on him too much. He wants 3 ponts of muscle replacemnt.
muscle replacement #3 would cost 3 points of essence but 3 is less than 3.1 so it only costs him 1.5 points of essence

Then Twinkie want's to be faster so he gets some reaction enhancers
Reactionn enhancers #3 would be .9 essence but 1.5 + .9 are still less than 3.1 so the reaction enhancers only cost .45

Now he has .95 essence left. He's lost 3.1 essence to bioware and 1.95 essence to cyber.

Twinky strikes it rich and blows his cred on more upgrades
eyes #3 and ears #3 for .8 essence but he has bioware so that cost is halved make it .2 essence each so:
Eyes and ears #3 for .4 essence
An ultrasound sensor for .3 ÷ 2 = .15 essence
Then he gets a datajack for .1 ÷ 2 = .05 essence
He goes under the knife for another .6 points of essence in cyber leaving him with an essence rating of .35

My question: Can Twinky realy have 3.1 essence points of bioware and 5.1 points of cyber?
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Thanee
post Dec 24 2006, 10:26 AM
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You look at the total of each, then pick the smaller one and divide that by two, then add the two numbers. It doesn't matter, which of the totals was halved before, when a change in implants occurs, you always look at the full totals again.

3.1 and 5.1 means the 3.1 gets halved. So 5.1 + 3.1 / 2 = 6.65 ---> no good idea. ;)

The error you did is, that you looked at the halved total of the cyber (3.0 / 2) after the Muscle Replacement got installed, instead of the full total (3.0 + 0.9 for the Reaction Enhancer is more than the 3.1 in bioware, so that gets applied at half value now, and the cyber is counted fully now), but the numbers don't change, Muscle Replacement still costs 3.0 Essence (even though it was only applied at half value to calculate your Essence Attribute). You always look at the full total, the halved values only get used, when you actually calculate your total Essence Loss. Always start at the base, when you calculate Essence.

After the Reaction Enhancers, he would have an Essence Loss of 3.9 + 3.1 / 2 = 5.45, and thus an Essence of 0.55 left.

Bye
Thanee
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OneTrikPony
post Dec 24 2006, 10:28 AM
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at what point does my cyber essence cost exceed 3.1?
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Thanee
post Dec 24 2006, 10:30 AM
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Just edited that part in, in the meantime. Hope it's clear now. :)

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Thanee
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OneTrikPony
post Dec 24 2006, 11:22 AM
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No I understood what you were saying before you edited your post. My issue is that I was lead to believe that You could have amounts of ware installed in SR4 similar to what you could have in SR3. In 3 you could have 5.9 points of cyberware and 3.1 points of bioware because bioware took up BioIndex. Strict reading of the SR4 rule indicates that you can't get that much ware anymore.

In the FAQ threadFrankTrollman said:
QUOTE
Bio Index is gone. Bioware costs Essence, but the new Essence calculations and costs are a lot more generous - so players can have about the same (or more) ware, but there are less ware subsystems to keep track of.


later in that thread I complained that bioware cost essence. He told me my argument was ingenuous because essence for either cyber or bio would be halved which I took to mean that 9 = 9. Apparently you just can't have 6 and 3 anymore.

What am I missing?
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Fortune
post Dec 24 2006, 11:34 AM
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Technically, Twinkie could have 4 full points of either Cyber or Bioware, and also have 3.999 points of the other (calculated at 1.9999).

edit: The old Bio-Index (and hence the additional +3 to which you are refering) is gone in SR4. You can only have up to your Essence (or technically just under) in implants of any kind. The actual Essence cost for type of implant with the lower total Essense cost is halved when calculating the final total Essense loss.
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Thanee
post Dec 24 2006, 11:43 AM
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QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Dec 24 2006, 12:22 PM)
later in that thread I complained that bioware cost essence. He told me my argument was ingenuous because essence for either cyber or bio would be halved which I took to mean that 9 = 9. Apparently you just can't have 6 and 3 anymore.

What am I missing?

I would say, that you got it right. You cannot have as much as you had before.

If you disregard Bio-Index, you can now have more ware for your 6 points of Essence, but you won't get as much as you could in SR2-3.

Bye
Thanee
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toturi
post Dec 24 2006, 11:55 AM
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QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Dec 24 2006, 07:22 PM)
He told me my argument was ingenuous because essence for either cyber or bio would be halved which I took to mean that 9 = 9. Apparently you just can't have 6 and 3 anymore.

What am I missing?

You are not missing anything. You simply cannot have as much enhancements as before. While bioware costs essense, the costs of enhancements are halved for the bio/cyber whichever is lower. But both enahcement types cost essense and you cannot have cyber 6, bio 3 anymore.
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Fortune
post Dec 24 2006, 12:01 PM
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With judicious choices, you can cram quite a bit in with this rule.

* .66 Essence worth of one and .659 of the other only amounts to a total loss of 1 Essence point.

* 1.33 Essence worth of one and 1.3299 of the other only amounts to a total loss of 2 Essence points.

* 2 Essence worth of one and 1.999 of the other only amounts to a total loss of 3 Essence points.

* 2.66 Essence worth of one and 2.6599 of the other only amounts to a total loss of 4 Essence points.

* 3.33 Essence worth of one and 3.3299 of the other only amounts to a total loss of 5 Essence points.

* And pretty much the maximum is as I listed earlier ... 4 Essence worth of one and 3.999 of the other only amounts to a total loss of just under 6 Essence points.
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OneTrikPony
post Dec 24 2006, 01:12 PM
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Saying that 7.99 points of implants is "still alot of implants" doesn't really molify my burgeoning hatred of 4th eddition. 7.99 is not the 9.0 points that I used to play with. I've been up for a couple of days now and I'm about to go on a screaming rant like I did in the FAQ thread. Don't worry dear moderators I have a new anger management system.

Before I go kick my dog across the yard Can I suggest that the developers use some space in Augmentation to FIX THIS CRAP!

BRB
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Dissonance
post Dec 24 2006, 01:23 PM
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On the plus side, you no longer have to deal with the madness that is dealing with the BI system, not to mention stress, or the insanely retarded surgery rules, in which a decent plan for even cheap cyberwear costs enough to retire on.
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Fortune
post Dec 24 2006, 01:35 PM
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QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Dec 25 2006, 12:12 AM)
Before I go kick my dog across the yard Can I suggest that the developers use some space in Augmentation to FIX THIS CRAP!

There's no need to fix the crap, as you say. While it might be true that in SR4 overall you have a numeric deficiancy of 1/9th the total you could cram into yourself in SR3, you should also keep in mind that quite a lot of the Essence/Bio costs dropped in SR4 as well. You may well find that on comparison, you can get more actual implants in with SR4, despite the apparent minor numerical lack.
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Thanee
post Dec 24 2006, 01:40 PM
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QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Dec 24 2006, 02:12 PM)
Before I go kick my dog across the yard Can I suggest that the developers use some space in Augmentation to FIX THIS CRAP!

They did so already in the transition from SR3 to SR4, the new system is better than the old one. :)

Bye
Thanee
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toturi
post Dec 24 2006, 02:30 PM
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QUOTE (OneTrikPony)
Saying that 7.99 points of implants is "still alot of implants" doesn't really molify my burgeoning hatred of 4th eddition. 7.99 is not the 9.0 points that I used to play with. I've been up for a couple of days now and I'm about to go on a screaming rant like I did in the FAQ thread. Don't worry dear moderators I have a new anger management system.

Before I go kick my dog across the yard Can I suggest that the developers use some space in Augmentation to FIX THIS CRAP!

BRB

Hopefully you'd get thrown into jail for animal abuse before Augmentation comes out then. And oh btw, congratulations, you are now the second person to riun Christmas after emo.
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OneTrikPony
post Dec 24 2006, 02:47 PM
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QUOTE
On the plus side, you no longer have to deal with the madness that is dealing with the BI system

Are you joking?

BI was essence +3 - (bioware cost) That subtraction stuff was really rough. NOT

Now when I develope a character it seems I have to recalculate the totals of bio or cyber each time I add a piece of gear. How is that better?

QUOTE
keep in mind that quite a lot of the Essence/Bio costs dropped in SR4 as well. You may well find that on comparison, you can get more actual implants in with SR4

Wrong.
Perhaps you're refereing to the entirely superfluous simrig or the headware radio that no longer exists or the one tenth point of essence you save on a datajack? Maybe you're talking about cyberlimbs which actualy have less capacity because now you have to enhance 3 atributes instead of 2. How about those sweet skill wires with their dandy new active skill rating caped at 4. Or the sweet deal you can get on inexpencive initiative ehnancers which are now incompatible with any other type of reaction enhancers.

Cyber ware is less capable almost across the board and now you have less essence space to use to make up for it. I haven't been able to successfully convert even ONE of my old characters to this new system. It's not one ninth of the capacity it's A FULL POINT OF ESSENCE gone with the wind's of change. Factor the eventual Deltaware into that.

QUOTE
They did so already in the transition from SR3 to SR4, the new system is better than the old one.

I'll have to assume you enjoy playing adepts.

The more I look at it the more the new system dissapoints me. It's not better it's just STUPID SIMPLE on the surface and messy underneath. I can't say I blame the dev's for trying to streamline. In the US we get dumber with every graduating class. It's not all bad. Not having to worry about program memory is nice but wouldn't you like to see stuff like a Concealability Column in the gear sections? Wouldn't it be nice to have some reference for cargo load and seating in your vehicles regardless of how arbitrary it happens to be? Sure decking and rigging used different rule sets but by the time whe had versions of 3.5(revised) they were working pretty well and everyone was on the same page. Wouldn't it be nice to calculate how many implants you can have by simple subtraction?
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OneTrikPony
post Dec 24 2006, 02:54 PM
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It was the damned christians who ruined christmas. It used to be just Yule and some skinny norse guy who smacked kids for screwing up cyberware.

I'm in utah I can't get in trouble for animal abuse unless a pentagram is involved. Nerfing cyber makes me really angry, it's either kick the dog or beat the wife. When the FAQ came out I threw my Tolkien set through the wall. I hate patching drywall.
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Serbitar
post Dec 24 2006, 02:57 PM
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Bioware SR4 >> Bioware SR3. (I think its even too good compared to cyber)
Sams got much more powerfull. Adepts are the losers at the moment, except for having high dice numbers in skills.

Things like wall running are much too weak (Only 4 meters on average with really high values).
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Thanee
post Dec 24 2006, 03:16 PM
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QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Dec 24 2006, 03:47 PM)
I'll have to assume you enjoy playing adepts.

Dunno, havn't played one yet in SR4; from playing around with the character generation, I like the cyber-side better.

Adepts are among the weaker archetypes in SR4, IMHO.

QUOTE
The more I look at it the more the new system dissapoints me. It's not better it's just STUPID SIMPLE on the surface and messy underneath.


What's messy there?

QUOTE
I can't say I blame the dev's for trying to streamline. In the US we get dumber with every graduating class. It's not all bad. Not having to worry about program memory is nice...


You still have that to a degree with system loads. And memory really shouldn't be a practical limit. Even today it isn't really one anymore.

QUOTE
...but wouldn't you like to see stuff like a Concealability Column in the gear sections?


Well, the gear section could need a column or two more, yeah, like weight, but it's not like that would turn a great game into a bad one. Would have been nice, but hardly necessary. :)

QUOTE
Wouldn't it be nice to have some reference for cargo load and seating in your vehicles regardless of how arbitrary it happens to be? Sure decking and rigging used different rule sets but by the time whe had versions of 3.5(revised) they were working pretty well and everyone was on the same page.


I really like what they did with SR4 (in fact, its core is quite similar to what I did to SR2 already with my extensive house rules; I always disliked the silly target number modifers in SR and how they totally messed up any probabilities behind the rolls, and changed those to a fixed TN variable dice number system several years ago already).

It has some problems still, sure, it's certainly not perfect, but what system is?

It works really well. The results you get are pretty close to what you would expect. It's smooth, fast-playing, and still complex enough.

QUOTE
Wouldn't it be nice to calculate how many implants you can have by simple subtraction?


It is simple. Add up two numbers, multiply the lower one with 1/2.


Maybe it's not for you. If you don't like the new system, noone forces you to use it. :)
If you havn't really tried it yet, I would give it a chance, though. :)
And always remember... different =/= bad.

Bye
Thanee
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Faelan
post Dec 24 2006, 03:29 PM
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Do I think some things are wrong with cyberware? Sure. I do not understand why you think making it more balanced is nerfing it. The fact of the matter is the adepts and mages you so like to compare cyber to are karma sinks. They have to dump karma to progress, and a very slow progression it is. A cybertank spends nuyen. Every game I have ever played in or GM'ed cash was a lot easier to come by than karma. So now you run into the brick wall of no more advancement faster as a cybertank. Well what is wrong with that? You spent a shitload of money, you got there quickly, and can go no further. Sorry. Cyber has always struck me as a supplementary item in Shadowrun. If you wanted full conversion borgs you played Cyberpunk 2020. When you look at the whole backstory/metaplot of Shadowrun it is not just about the tech it is equally about the magic. As it stands Mages and Adepts have no technical limit, but have fun paying through the nose for everything.

Another thing why should something you pay for with money be as good as something paid for with karma? I just want to hear why you seem to think it should.

Personally I feel for you because you do hit that point of no advancement, and it always sucks when a character can go no further, but thats what houserules are for. I seriously doubt that Augmentation is going to seriously diverge from the rules set forth in the core book, so instead of throwing things through drywall draft your own rules and use them for your game. No one will fault you.
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ruknabard
post Dec 24 2006, 05:00 PM
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I'm going to have to agree that I think the new bio/cyber essence rules are much better.

The decrease in overall essence is, I feel, balanced by lower essence costs for much of the ware. Additionally, Since Bioware has become more popular, you can have a Bio heavy/ Cyber lite character just as easy as you could have a Cyber heavy/ bio lite charater and still feel like the system is in balance.

Please, if you really dislike the system so much, why don't you provide an alternative? The SR core book frequently promotes the players and GM to tailor the game to suit their needs. I think that being creative in this situtation is a lot better than just being angry and abusing small defenseless animals.
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OneTrikPony
post Dec 24 2006, 06:41 PM
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QUOTE
Bioware SR4 >> Bioware SR3

Now that I'm sure is a joke. :D
Which bioware is better? I understand that the essence cost for some bioware in SR4 is 50% - 70% of the BioIndex value of SR3 ware. THAT'S THE POINT bioware didn't cost any essence in SR3 you could have 9 points of bioware--9 whole points of Bioware--with none of the irritating side effects like immediate death form lack of essence.

Some of the ware has been changed. We all know about the synaptic accelerator; we have a different initiative system so it doesn't directly compair but most people agree that it's better in SR4. What about the Adrenal pump, Symbiots, Ortho skin, and Enhanced Articulation? Nerfed. I'm thankfull that there is now Bioware in the BBB. (Initiation is also now in the BBB.) Also account for the fact that less bioware is available at chargen due to availability changes.
QUOTE
QUOTE
The more I look at it the more the new system dissapoints me. It's not better it's just STUPID SIMPLE on the surface and messy underneath.

What's messy there?

and
QUOTE
QUOTE
Wouldn't it be nice to calculate how many implants you can have by simple subtraction?

It is simple. Add up two numbers, multiply the lower one with 1/2.

It's not simple. I don't know anyone who plays cyber characters who walks through a character build like that. When you have built an adept did you spend 65 karma for 6 points of magic and then only load him out with 4 power points worth of adept powers. A player would only do that if he were dumb or lazy. When I build a cyber character my final essence target is < 0.5, saving essence for later just gets characters killed.

So now I install 3 points of bioware which is usually the max that I can afford.
Then I install 3 points of cyber.
but then I devide that in half which leaves me a point of essence left to play with
So I install some more cyber
Which means that I devide the bio in half and cyber counts at full rate
which means that now I have less essence to work with than I thought.
So I have to move some bio around, maybe trade Dermal for Ortho or viseversa, maybe rethink my character.
Which means that I recalulate both sides
which leaves me with some portion of essence left...
So I've recalculated essence 6 damed times before I've got the character where I want.
4 years ago I could build a Streetsam in my head while I was going to sleep and type him up in the morning. I thought I was getting to that point in SR4 until I revisited the 1/2 essence rule and now I have to rebuild 18 NPC's and my future plans for my 3 PC's are fucked.

QUOTE
Maybe it's not for you. If you don't like the new system, noone forces you to use it.
If you havn't really tried it yet, I would give it a chance, though.
Maybe you havn't noticed but SR3 is no longer supported. I can only run Blood in the Boardrooom so many times. I've got the first 6 adventures of my campain mapped with Legwork tables and most of the art finished. I'm lucky enough to have found a GM who will let me play in his SR4 game. (He still resorts to some SR3 rules to cover stuff that is complete nonsense in SR4, like healing. I don't know anyone in northern utah who still plays SR3. So technicaly you're right. No one forces me to use SR4 I could always go back to some D20 monster manual bullshit.

And Faelan :]
I resent strongly your implication that I have ever played CP2020, or a borg, I am not joking I am actually offended. It seems to me that you fail to grasp
the 1000% ¥ markup of delta ware,
the fact that there are 4 times as many published initiatory groups as there are Delta clinics,
the concept that a mage can self initiate as well as create his own foci
A mundane cannot self install his own deltaware nor build his own deltaware
the concept that In game advancement of Powers is one of the most important parts of roleplay
the certainty of a hard cap on power advancemnt of a cyber character in published material
The total lack of any cap or limitation on power advancment of a magic character in shadowrun.
I further resent your implication that powers payed for with ¥ should not be as good as powers paid for with Karma given equivelant game time to acrue.
I think when you call cyberware a "supplimentary" item in our CYBERPUNK game where "man meet magic AND machine" you tell me everything I need to know about you.

I dub thee MAGE TWINK EXTRORDINARE, please don't ever talk to me again. [edit] Sorry that was me being an ass again. I'm still calling you mage twink extrordiaire but I have an idea that you're pretty good at getting the most out of your mage. Faelan, with your permission I'll PM you directly when I run up against some of the finer points of magic character development.

[edit] @ ruknabard and Synner and Adam and Mods
After the FAQ came out and I blew up last time I really tried hard to write something I could submit for Augmented before the Dec 11 deadline. I know all the writing had been assigned but I felt semi-invited to make my ideas available incase anyone wanted to use them, or at least put my effort where my big mouth is. I worked on it for three nights and took half a day off work. I missed that boat. It was too little tallent too late in the game for me to get anything writen that didn't embarass me. This even after I decided to limit my submission to expansions of cyberlimbs. You only have to read this tread to figure out that I can barely spell, let alone grasp the broader stylistic points of writing such as knowing when to end a sentance before it becomes a monstrosity that threatens to eat my paragraph. I produced about 10 pages of garbage that made Strunk and White sob, and got me in a fight with my wife when I asked her to edit for me. I'm not just falling back on my lack of art either. I found it difficult not to push ideas that were on the boundary of contradicting the BBB. I also tend to violate the simplicity and streamlinging of the SR4 rules framework with complex rules that mostly serve to highlight flavor at the expence of game play.

For instance; I've always thought that a character with a cyber torso ought to be able to exceed the Augmented Racial Maximum for attributes if he chose to spend his limb capacity on enough enhancements. That's probably not a good idea, but it makes perfect sence to me that the machine wouldn't have bilogical limitations.

I wanted to add rules for cyberlimb mainenance and damage. At the most streamlined these rules required extra book keeping. The writing was so heavy with caveats and clauses it looked like a herd of Parentheses being chased by semicolons. The secton would have reqired at least 1 italicized example text that would have taken up a quarter column.

I have occaisionaly posted ideas for house rules on the boards search for "I fixed cyberlimbs" to find my begining ideas for that problem.

It's not that I havn't tried, I just havn't succeded.
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Fortune
post Dec 24 2006, 06:52 PM
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I'm out! The personal attacks are more than I want to deal with on Christmas Day.
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Marmot
post Dec 24 2006, 06:56 PM
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FrankTrollman
post Dec 24 2006, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE
It's not one ninth of the capacity it's A FULL POINT OF ESSENCE gone with the wind's of change. Factor the eventual Deltaware into that.


OK.

Old System: 5.99 Essence worth of Cyberware (all delta) and 3 pointsof Bioware (All Cultured) = 11.99 points of Cyberware and 4.0 points of Bioware. That's 15.99 points total, as long as none of the Bioware you got started Cultured.

New System: 4.0 Essence of Cyberware (All Delta) and 3.99 points of Bioware (all Delta) = 8.0 points of Cyberware and 7.99 points of Bioware. That's 15.99 points total, and you can include cultured bioware in that, and you don't have to pay for routers any more and several items are somewhat cheaper than they were in the past on top of that.

So the high end is better. Mathematically you have the same number of points of total stuff, and a bunch of items are slightly to extremely cheaper. I don't even understand where your complaint is coming from unless it's a fundamental unwillingness to do basic math or fully read the current system.

The SR4 system has less rules to keep track of, and for cybersamurai that's a good thing. A low Essence doesn't penalize your social rolls, a pile of bioware doesn't raise your healing TNs, you aren't arbitrarily prevented from getting higher grades of many pieces of ware and so on. Yeah the numbers were slihtly cranked down - but since the limitations on cost reduction were also removed, that just mens that you have less penalties to magical healing - not that you have less equipment in your body.

-Frank
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Charon
post Dec 24 2006, 08:24 PM
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Member No.: 7,087



I kinda thought the street sam was cramming more gadgets than ever based on firt campaign so far.

That's hardly scientific of course. Still, the amount of enhancements per BP the Street Sam crammed in his build struck me as rather impressive.

For example, for .3 essence (capacity 8 ) he got cyber eyes with smartlink, low light, flare compensation and thermo. Plus he has the image link and eye recording system (essentially a camera as per SR3 rules) thrown in for free! And the wireless connection option (Which is usually turned off for securit reason but can sometime be incredibly useful).

In SR3 it would have cost him 1.5 essence if memory serve (Have my M&M on hand but not my SR3 core) without accounting for wireless connectivity.

At any rate, SR3 eyes had a limit of 1.2 essence worth of modification in them (as per M&M) and a SR4 sam routinely explode that limit since just by buying cybereyes he gets what used to be .6 essence of mods for free so he's already halfway there.

He also casually bought himself an adrenal pump. Used to be 1.25 bio index but it just cost him .75 essence.

And during game he bought Muscle toner for just .2 essence instead of .4 bio index.

Next on the list, hearing modification. With also the possibility to cram more mods per essence point than ever before.

Needless to say the player is quite happy with the amount of power he has been able to cram in his PC. Meanwhile the piece of techs that cost as much essence as they used to are often more worthwile then they were in SR3. I'm thinking of wired 2 which has a bigger impact on performance than it used two (The 3 passes are guaranteed AND it helps dodging) so they are worth their cost more than ever.
A lot of this stuff is also more affordable.

Sure the pay per mission has dropped, but unless the GM is very cheap, it hasn't dropped as much as the price for most of the high end equipment. 100k instead of 500k for wired 3, for example. Have the average paycheck dropped by 80%? In most campaign, no.

Obviously I wonder about the rules for replacing cyber with new stuff but we didn't have those either in SR3 when it started so I'm patiently waiting for augmentations.
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