 Magic Charactors Better than Mundane?, A discussion comparing mundayne to magic |
  |
 Dec 26 2006, 02:17 AM
Post
#26
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf  Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486  |
Do you really rule it that way in your games? I would think it only reasonable that the absolute minimum threshold be set at 1. |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Dec 26 2006, 02:39 AM
Post
#27
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Somewhere in the barrens, a mage casts a Force 10 stunbolt. (4P drain, you cant say your mage hasnt done it at least once) Due to the mechanics, the TN is negative 4 to notice it being cast.
All of a sudden, half of Seattle turns towards Redmond and says 'Wow, someone just cast a force 10 Stunbolt in Redmond...' Yeah... not likely... |
|
|
|
|
Dec 26 2006, 02:50 AM
Post
#28
|
|||||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
yes, i would. it's not as if magic needs a boost, after all. of course, i would apply common sense to this (you requre line of sight to be able to make perception tests, for example), but i see no real problem with people having an easy time noticing powerful magic, personally. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Dec 26 2006, 03:04 AM
Post
#29
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
No. Perception test is only a simple action if you take the "Observe in detail" simple action (p.117 "Using Perception"). The GM should make the perception test on behalf of the player (at least whenever the player didn't call for it as a simple action) whenever something worthy of notice occurs within his sensory range, though it specifically state that a -2 is warranted in all such occasions. And again, if my team and I are attacked in hour base of operation by four commandos, and we suffer a spell while three of the commandos shoot at us but an other one takes cover without breaking LOS... I shoot him. No matter what the dice are telling me, I shoot that guy. Only a demented GM would argue that in fact that guy is a nobody while the real mage is invisible (What a raging waste of ressource it would be! If you outnumber the runner that bad, just have everybody shoot at them and cut them down in the first pass!) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 26 2006, 03:07 AM
Post
#30
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
Cause that would be meta gaming and thats bad, M'kay? :P
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 26 2006, 03:09 AM
Post
#31
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
That's non sense. It's not metagaming : all the information are available to the character. He knows there's almost certainly a mage in the room. He knows 3 guys are shooting at him and one isn't. The guy who isn't shooting has a high likelyhood of being the mage. Kill him. Not nuclear physics. Nowhere in the rules is it stated that a character is required to act like a moron if his perception test fail. It's as if someone argued that if an alarm tripped (I know there is an intruder) but I fail my perception test while listening for noise in the next room, I should enter that room as if I believed there was no one in that room. Like hell I will. I'll assume he's here and enter with gun drawn anyway. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 26 2006, 04:36 AM
Post
#32
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 26-April 06 From: DFW, "the capital of Texas", CAS Member No.: 8,504 |
Ok, I thought it was Magic vs Mudvayne.... and I was wondering how loud music was magical......
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 26 2006, 09:05 AM
Post
#33
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 571 Joined: 9-January 05 From: In the 9th circle of hell Member No.: 6,950 |
Keep in mind I haven't played 4th edition, though I have played 1-3.
I think it is more about style and where you want to take your character. For speed, nothing beats a street sam. In terms of starting skills, phys-ads are better. In terms of someone who an cause massive distruction and sneak in anywhere? Mage. A sammy with incidiary bombs is going to get stopped by security. A mage who has a force 6 hellblast, on the other hand.... In the long term, magical characters seem to get more powerful whith much greater frequency. At that level, they can become tanks, if the right spells are taken. The 3 balancing things that are huge for mages (one is an optional rule, and I think the other was dropped in 3rd edition, but we kept it.) are: drain, focus addiction, and grounding from astral. drain can play hell on a mage. Yeah, hellblast can do a LOT of damage,most mages pass out after casting it. Focus addiction: effectivly limits how many points of active foci one can carry. (There was a huge debate on this being a bad rule before, but without it a starting shamen can have a MR of about 100 in a year. I don't think creating a mana spike that big is a good idea.) Grounding from astral: I always like this rule, it made it so mages had to worry about stealth in astral space. All in all, I think they are balanced. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 27 2006, 01:56 AM
Post
#34
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 19-February 05 From: Charlotte, NC Member No.: 7,100 |
You know.. when my characters start running in the combat shooting and hitting stuff.. the last thing i think they are worried about it that guy with an assult rifle staring all mean like at them and thinking "I think he is a mage, let me geek him first"
Nah its always... Geek the guy closest to me.. then work down the list =) |
|
|
|
|
Dec 27 2006, 02:06 AM
Post
#35
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
then clearly your character is insane. let me put it this way: do you shoot the person with a pistol first, or the person with a HMG, grenade launcher, PAC, missile launcher, etc? because, here's the thing: as soon as you *know* there's a mage around (ie, a spell has been cast on the group) you can either assume the mage can overcast manaball strong enough to oneshot the entire group, or you can bet your life on the hope that he's not a combat mage whatsoever. to me, the chance that the mage can kill the entire group with a single spell is just too much of a risk... ignoring a mage when you know there is one out there is roughly equivalent to ignoring the guy with the HMG and shooting the guy with the pistol. except that the guy with the HMG can't take over your mind and make you grab onto a team member and wirelessly detonate all your grenades while they're still sitting in your gear harness. or send a spirit to hunt you down while you're sleeping. or kill you from across the globe just from having seen you. mages, on the other hand, can do all of those things (in addition to firing HMG-like attacks off at you) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 27 2006, 02:24 AM
Post
#36
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
I've always favored Street Sams, it's relatively easy to be survivable as a street sam and you have enough karma to double up with combat and other skills. I've always preferred social skills myself.
Mages are a karma sink and although they can be powerful with various spells I've found that a Street Sam with a wide variety of equipment and skills can do just as much. Mages aren't as survivable and if you're using higher force spells the perception tests will display you as the mage anyway. I can't remember a mage ever living long enough to receive my 2nd burst... |
|
|
|
|
Dec 27 2006, 03:20 AM
Post
#37
|
|||||||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 500 Joined: 4-September 06 From: Salt Lake UT Member No.: 9,299 |
Sustaining focus (manipulations) #2, 20000¥ cast force 2 spell (7 die) ~ 2 hits = + 2 armor Of course it will sustain any manipulation spell. dermal plate #2, 10000¥ + 1 point of essence + 2 armor Orthoskin #2, 60000¥ + .5 essence +2 armor
Is that because your spell slinger didn't have invisibility, Stun bolt, and Increase reflexes? and 40000¥ worth of sustaining foci?
Cyber isn't the way to go for damage resistance. Make your contacts and buy yourself Pain Editor Bio ASAP. (better yet spend the BP for a Con 4+ street doc at chargen.) Also isn't activation of a focus a free action which means that you can leave it off an turn it on in the same action phase that you cast the spell? (can't remember if the pain editor also applies to stunn damge from unresisted drain. This might be the game breaking cyber all mages have been waiting for.) [edit]Just found that activation of a focus is a simple action not a free action. Its also good to find out that foci must be activated before the mage progects if he want's to use em.
This man knows whereof he speaks. It is the most powerful spell build and the least fun.
I've never had a PC mage killed by a mundane. I've had my NPC's killed by mundanes occaisionaly, but more often it's the party mage (or one of his spirits) that finds the magic opposition and saves the parties ass. Spirits, not spells, are the key. They're more powerful and have more utility then drones. They're not limited by published material. |
||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||
|
Dec 27 2006, 04:04 AM
Post
#38
|
|||
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...hmm sounds like a movie I once saw. Anyway, already exhausted my allotment of arguments on this topic for this year. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 27 2006, 05:42 AM
Post
#39
|
|||
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Only if you are playing a non-canon game, and you could easily have a drone do everytthing including cook. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 27 2006, 06:09 AM
Post
#40
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 571 Joined: 9-January 05 From: In the 9th circle of hell Member No.: 6,950 |
Yes, they are sinkholes. But the augmentation of a mage is not something that shows up on an x-ray scanner. :-) Mages aren't as survivable? I've never had a mage die on me. Street sam I'm at 2 or three. Mortax had over 300 karma and could take a dragon, then again, he was a vampire. Pyre Dancer was the only one to survive a fiasco in which a house collapsed and a professional assassin team waiting outside. The only ones that didn't go to D+ damage was Pyre dancer and the Azzy mage we were supposed to be guarding. (Ironically, Pyre was a Phoenix shaman...) My cat shaman likewise had a high survivability. I think the survivability of mages and shamans is partially dependent on the spells you take. Heal or treat is a must. Most of the time, I don't take many combat spells, if any. Illusion and manipulation spells are my standbys. Barrier spells, improved invis, levitate item, levitate person, magic fingers, and overstim are all very good things to have. Levitating a dumpster on top of gangers is just as effective as fireball, and a lot more amusing. ;) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 27 2006, 06:54 AM
Post
#41
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
I'm not sure though if their quite as survivable under SR4 as they were under SR3. I mean SR3 you could soak crazy ammounts of damage even with just body 5 and some decent KP (100 karma character or so, so KP would have been 10 or 11? Cant recall now)
I'm not sure how well that works under SR4 though. It seems to me it's generally alot harder to soak damage in SR4 than SR3. On the flipside, skimp on body and go all out agility and you can really dodge like crazy. Add in sprits and a few of the right spells and I can easily see a mage being just as durable if not abit more so than the adept or sammie. Then again I dont think I've ever seen a mage rush into the thick of battle where as I've very often seen adepts/sammies do that and promptly get shot to hell. I have however been on the recieving end of mage mind probes etc under SR3, under SR3 there just was no real comparison of power after a while. I get the feeling under SR4 though their abit closer to equal. I mean in the end there's allways a tradeoff somewhere. The mage might be good at say.. mind control but he sure cant soak that direct hit from an assault cannon the way a Troll -might- manage to do. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 27 2006, 07:20 AM
Post
#42
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Reaction. Agility doesn't help you Dodge. ;) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 27 2006, 07:23 AM
Post
#43
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Bleh, shows that I havent been playing enough SR4 to remember that without reference :(
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 27 2006, 07:44 AM
Post
#44
|
|
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
..OK OK, one more comment on the topic.
With the Possession tradition, and Invoking, mages have just moved up by several degrees on the KK Rudeness scale. Mundanes can only hope that Arsenal offers some appropriate countermeasures to even the playing field again. ...you gotta love the new arms race. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 27 2006, 07:47 AM
Post
#45
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
What if the possessing spirit however decides that it doesnt want to let go of the mages body? Either way I do very much look forward to the new toys that will be presented in Aresenal and Augmentation. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 27 2006, 08:20 AM
Post
#46
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 571 Joined: 9-January 05 From: In the 9th circle of hell Member No.: 6,950 |
Quite possibly. I've never actually played 4th edition. :-) So my coments will have to be taken in that light. And the only mage I've every played or seen run into a fight, but that was Mortax and it doesn't really count. :-) That might be why my mages survived well. They were smart enough not to run in the middle of a firefight. I know they got rid of them (sortof) since 2nd edition, but spell locks with detect trap, detect gun ect. are invaluable. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 27 2006, 01:25 PM
Post
#47
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 323 Joined: 17-November 06 From: 1984 Member No.: 9,891 |
how about a Troll mage then :P And there really is no reason why a mage wont wear as much normal armor as a Sam (or a gun for all it matters)
well, that is either GM punishment, a screwed up conjuring test or another mage/spirit taking control over the spirit. And possessed drones are just evil. (lets not even talk about possessed streetsams :D) |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Dec 27 2006, 05:04 PM
Post
#48
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Trolls have a max int and log of 7, and Cha of 6. So they won't be running with the high end mages, which is the realm people are talking about. And there is a reason - body*2 limit on Armor. So to wear a standard armor jacket, you need body 4. Granted, Body 4 is nice. But for a mage, that's bp that didn't go to log/init/cha/will/agi/reac.... But again, we're doing the never ending dance. Some people are convinced Mages are better. Some know they aren't. And no amount of posting huge blocks will prove it. If mages are too powerful in your games, come ask for help building mundanes, or create houserules. I think enough people fall on both sides that it indicates things are fine. And saying that Sammies die, mages don't is sort of like saying "Officers are rarely killed in action, but grunts are dying all the time." Or even "Man, comparing the violent death rates between bodyguards and accountants sure shows me that accountants are much tougher than bodyguards...." |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 27 2006, 09:19 PM
Post
#49
|
|
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...a physically maxxed out troll mage initiate voluntarily possessed by a force 8 spirit...
That would require at least a shoulder launched ATGM. Or maybe "Atomic Annie". ..man, can I just hibernate till Arsenal comes out? |
|
|
|
|
Dec 27 2006, 10:11 PM
Post
#50
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
There is, however, no limits on their Willpower. There is no reason you should be discounting Trolls, or counting them as a seperate 'class' when discussing magic, as they can be on a par with (almost) every other race. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 22nd December 2024 - 08:32 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.