 Magic Charactors Better than Mundane?, A discussion comparing mundayne to magic |
  |
 Dec 27 2006, 10:36 PM
Post
#51
|
|
|
Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168  |
Personally, I loveses me some Troll Mages. I typically prefer Ork mages, but either is damn good.
That being said, most people tend to look at the extreme of the extreme when doing these comparisons, and Trolls will be 3-4 points below other metas in resisting drain. Because the assumption is maxed magic, maxed drain stats, maxed spell casting, maxed foci. The troll has less foci bonded, less drain, etc. I think they make a better mage, but they won't be up there in the horribly over broken numbers game. ;) |
 |
 
|
|
Dec 27 2006, 11:04 PM
Post
#52
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Only 2 behind a human, or 3 if they use a Charisma-based Tradition. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 27 2006, 11:09 PM
Post
#53
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
Regardless of all the various paper crunching I've yet to see a mage or street sam that was terribly overpowered IG. They're decently balanced.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 27 2006, 11:11 PM
Post
#54
|
|
|
Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Mages have many things to spend their karma on. The fact that trolls have lower max attributes need not matter for quite some time. Getting your drain stats to maximum can be a good way to spend your karma, but it isn't necessarily the ultimate priority. I made a pretty darn good troll shaman once. He was fifteen with minimum physical attributes (for a troll), but a very, very respectable combat mage for a starting character. I'd say that I'd need a couple of hundred karma before the lower attribute caps really started to bother me. There were just so many other things to spend it all on. :) |
|
|
|
|
Dec 30 2006, 01:51 AM
Post
#55
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,955 Joined: 6-December 06 From: Payson, Utah Member No.: 10,237 |
Ive never made a troll mage before. I figured it was kinda like cheating. That, and it makes everything too easy. A starting charactor with Strong magics and Physcal stats? Not really my cup-o-tea.
I prefer human or elf mages personally. Kinda sets up a challange to see if i can keep em alive for long enough to make em decent. So far, so good. :) For now.... |
|
|
|
|
Dec 30 2006, 01:56 AM
Post
#56
|
|
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I have.
I think KK4.3 is still feeling the effect of that manabolt that nearly took her out. Meanwhile her Super Warhawks were about as effective as BB guns against that mage. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 30 2006, 02:25 AM
Post
#57
|
|||
|
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Troll mages tend to balance a bit more than you'd think because of their lower mental stats screwing their drain resistance. Get centering first. Try a dwarf. They make beefy little mages. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 30 2006, 02:28 AM
Post
#58
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,526 Joined: 9-April 06 From: McGuire AFB, NJ Member No.: 8,445 |
If you make a dwarf mage, just make sure to get Levitate to make up for thier reduced movement rates.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 30 2006, 03:26 AM
Post
#59
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,955 Joined: 6-December 06 From: Payson, Utah Member No.: 10,237 |
Just thinkin the same thing. :D
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 30 2006, 04:00 AM
Post
#60
|
|||
|
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Do you mean to tell me you don't think there are cooking autosofts and chef drones in 2070? If so, I'm curious why on earth not... If anything, cooking is gonna be pretty darn simple. It's not like a neurosurgery expert system. I mean, come on. Taco Bell in 2070 better have some goddamn burrito drones, or I'm gonna slap them and ask why they haven't sprung for a cheapo "add beans, cheese, ground beef-like-food-product" instruction set. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 30 2006, 05:18 AM
Post
#61
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
The one thing that can balance mages with mundanes is a GM who's intent on doing so.
If the GM runs the world so that
On the other hand, if the GM hardly ever throws up a magical counter-measure, then the mages might steal the show. Without wards and/or patrolling spirits, there's little incentive for the mage to not be lit up like a christmas tree with sustaining foci buffing his body, armor, initiative, levitating him, and making him invisible, and that's what makes mages ridiculously powerful right out of the box. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 30 2006, 05:35 AM
Post
#62
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Well thats really the whole thing, I've never generally found mages overpowered in every situation. Now and then sure, but no more so than a Sammie could be. I mean under SR3 there was one situation I was in on a run, there was several of us and then we run into this suicide bomber with a deadmans switch. He had like 20 kilos of C12 strapped to himself. A mage with mind control might easily have diffused the situation. But I cant think of any other ability that would have provided a quick and easy solution that would not have resulted in the bomb going off. One of the sammies though was an ork hopped up on some crazy cyber/bio, with a dikoted katana and something like 12 dice to throw behind it (under SR3). So he wound up taking the risk of rushing the guy, clamping one hand around the other guys (the one holding the detonator) which he had to make several tests against (Basically he had to get clsoe enough to do it, then roll reaction to do it before the guy could let go of the trigger) and then just ran the guy right through with his sword. Where uppon I, at the time playing a demo expert quickly rushed in to disarm the bomb while everyone else started beating feet away from the building incase something went wrong. It may just be that I dont know spells well enough to think of a way a typical mage could deal with a situation like that when everyone is well within the blast radius and theres only a matter of a combat turn before the guy detonates the bomb. Much less totally outshine anyone else. I do very much agree that the only time I've ever seen spelltossers outshine everyone in a huge way was when there were no appropriate countermeasures. And it doesnt allways have to be magical in nature. I mean the corp security sections make it quite clear that more and more often buildings are using 'living panels' or the much cheaper awakened ivy to cover the outside of buildings, their all using ultra tint windows, specifically so mages cant see inside the building and cast spells on people from the outside etc. And certainly by 2070 most 'major' buinsesses can easily afford such things as well as a few basic wards and such. With only a small percentage of the world population being awakened of course they wont all have on the job site mages, but they likely would have a few contracts out with LS, KE, HC and other security companies that would be alerted to a break in and respond accordingly. Likely by sending out a few drones and a watcher spirit or two to see what's up first. In the really high end area of things where your more likely to find runners, especially in cases when it's ultra expensive/important personell/equipment your very likely to have active measures in place to deal with magic. From wagemages to spirits to paracritters and the dreaded FAB III. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 30 2006, 06:12 AM
Post
#63
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 571 Joined: 9-January 05 From: In the 9th circle of hell Member No.: 6,950 |
COntroll thoughts or actions would have been best, you're right on that one. As for others... Hmm... Blast barrier cast around the guy, then smugle sudgest he let go. (Only if you have the spell at a very high force) is there a disabledevice spell, or did I write that one? Can't remember. Assuming that the bomb was electrical ignition and c12 has the same properties as c4, use a fire manipulation spell that doesn't explode (that part is very important, you need heat, but boom bad.) The fire fries the electronics (and you're bomber) but c4 is set off by electrical ignition or an explosion. In viatnam they used to light it on fire and cook with it. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 30 2006, 06:39 AM
Post
#64
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Indeed, but that doent necessarily mean C12 is as stable as C4.
There are alot of plastic explosives that will explode if burned. C4 is one of the few thats stable enough to.. well simply burn. It requires an actual electrical charge to detonate. The problem, as I see it at least, with just fireballing the guy or something is that you wouldnt 'burn' all the explosives instantly. Also deadman switches often work on the principle of a broken circuit. Depending on how the vest was built, it could be far more likely that the exposed wires leading to the detonator, or if its' wireless the transmitter/reciever woudl suddenly cease to recieve the signal that the circuit is intact. The moment the circuit is broken, it detonates. As for putting some sort of barrier around the guy sure that would work.. if you have one thats strong enough. 20 kilos of C12 in a confined area is more than enough to shatter even a strong barrier. Keep in mind C12 was really just R12 plastic explosive. And damage was then calculated by the ammount up to a full brick. SO thats 20x12 for a combined raiting of 240. I dont think anything short of a GD is goign to be able tocontain that fast enough. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 30 2006, 11:22 AM
Post
#65
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
... Magic Fingers spell to keep the deadman switch from activating, then stun bolting him before he realizes something is wrong (or let your teammates fire everything they have, so they won't feel useless).
If the bomb is also hardwired to a biomonitor it gets more complicated :D. To say it with John Chrichton's words: "Now, before anybody decides to get clever, you should know I have multiple deadman sensors from every culture on my ship and a few cultures I haven't heard of." [...] "My heart stops... we all go boom. My heart speeds up, it's boom again. Too hot, too cold, too happy, too sad, thirsty, hungry bored... it's John Lee Hooker time. Boom, boom, boom. And you try your little psychic trick... kaboom. " |
|
|
|
|
Dec 30 2006, 11:49 AM
Post
#66
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,168 Joined: 15-April 05 From: Helsinki, Finland Member No.: 7,337 |
Oh yeah they do. With no mental hinderances, and the Will bonus, the little guys are like a long-running mana battery. Coupled with a bit of a nice physical bonus, lets you pump the magic attributes more. Ive found Orks to be very, very nasty in this role. Their attribute limits are not that bad at all....and their mental attributes can be near max early, due to you not needing to even put anything to their Physical ones at the start. Now, jumping to the other side of mages and too much...in SR4 i am developing an alternate chargen system that actually brings back an old SR standby, the priority system. Already i am noticing a little bit of a magical nerf out of the box...it doesnt make mages totally overshadowed(far from it), but it does force them to make some tough decisions...so they cant have everything. :D (and far be it from me to dislike mages either....one of my favorite characters was an adept. Another was mundane. I just have fun.) |
||
|
|
|
||
 Dec 30 2006, 12:10 PM
Post
#67
|
|||
|
jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,353 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
That's my observation as well. Street Samurais are very capable, as are mages. Both are good. :) Bye Thanee |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 1 2007, 12:53 AM
Post
#68
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
You could do both. My usual mage is a healer/detection emphasis with a few combat and illusion spells. With an above average skill level in automatics (or whatever), plus a specialization and a sustaining focus for an Enhanced Reflexes spell, and the mage doesn't stand out much. For magical support they would often use a spirit or two that are high enough level not to take much or any damage from mundane means. Smart goggles or a full Smartlink also helps, though goggles don't hurt the Essence of course. This does slow magical advancement a bit in the beginning, but I've never had any problems with it in the long run. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 1 2007, 12:56 AM
Post
#69
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,955 Joined: 6-December 06 From: Payson, Utah Member No.: 10,237 |
True. In the long run, it would pay off. But thats assuming your charactor lives till then. ;)
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 1 2007, 01:19 AM
Post
#70
|
|
|
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Best bet is to play cautious when you're starting out with a new character. Then continue to play so later.
You, for instance, I know have problems doing either. :D |
|
|
|
|
Jan 1 2007, 02:21 AM
Post
#71
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
That is true. Keeping a character alive can be challenge, especially if the group isn't tactically inclined. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 22nd December 2024 - 08:49 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.