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> Sprinting questions, multiple sprint actions? multiple IPs?
kerbarian
post Dec 27 2006, 06:50 PM
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The first question is pretty basic: Can you take the sprint action more than once per combat turn? For example, a human with strength 3 and running 3 wants to run as far as possible in one turn. He takes a simple action to sprint and gets 2 successes, increasing his speed for the turn to 29m. Can he spend his second simple action to sprint again and increase his speed even more?

The second question is about how sprinting works with multiple initiative passes. If you can take as many sprint actions per turn as you want, then it's pretty straightforward (and anyone with multiple IPs can run *very* fast). But if sprinting is a movement type, would you have to spend a simple action every action phase to maintain your speed (like you have to spend a free action every action phase to maintain regular running)? Would you re-roll the sprint check each time and recalculate your speed?

For example, take a human with strength 3, running 3, and wired reflexes 1. During his first action phase, he sprints once (3 successes), increasing his speed for the round to 31m. As a result, he can move 15m this action. On his second IP, can he keep moving at his previous sprint speed by just spending a free action to run? If he spends another action to sprint (2 successes), what happens? Does it increase his speed for the round to 35m, meaning he can move 17m this action? Does it start from his base movement again for a total speed of 29m, meaning he can move 14m this action?

Just looking at the rules, I would guess that you can take the sprint action as often as you want, but that leads unrealistically fast speeds for unaugmented humans. I suppose that's not such a horrible thing, though.
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Eryk the Red
post Dec 27 2006, 06:54 PM
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I allow sprint actions as often as the character wishes to take them. I don't find it unduly powerful.
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Moon-Hawk
post Dec 27 2006, 07:44 PM
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My unofficial solution is:
There are always 4 initiative passes, and movement rates are always divided evenly between them (with rounding favoring the earlier passes).
Characters act normally in the passes in which they normally would, but the four passes are always there and movement is always divided.
So a human can run 7m per initiative pass. He can spend one or two simple actions to sprint, adding those successes to the distance he can travel in that pass.
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Arz
post Dec 27 2006, 07:56 PM
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Firstly you must divide the base run speed[~25m] by the number of IPs taking place. During each pass you can take simple actions to add 1m per success.

I'll use a real example to explain. Pad, Piotr, Rose, Armi, and Hex are being attacked trying to evac their bud Atlas from zombie central. The zombies are quick but Armi locked some doors to give us running room. Armi and Atlas need carried out so Rose and Pad take that duty.

Zombies have 4 IP so that's what we divide by. Even if you can't take an action during that pass you can still move. That's the only fair way to keep people moving as a squad. Pad the lucky dwarf runs at 20m/4=5m per pass. Rose, Piotr, and Hex are elves/humans moving at 25m/4=6.25m per pass. During there turns Rose gets 3 succ and Pad gets 4 so there neck and neck moving 9.25m and 9m respectively. Hex and Piotr are holding actions so they lag at 6.25. Almost identical on pass 2 so Hex and Piotr are about 6m behind the evacuees. At that point it was zombie cannonball time. Roll initiative!

Hope that helps.
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ChicagosFinest
post Dec 27 2006, 08:37 PM
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Sic explanation! That sounds the most fair to me
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deek
post Dec 27 2006, 08:47 PM
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Similar to Moon-Hawk, the way we play is always dividing by a total of 4 IPs, regardless of the player having an action or not. With sprinting, every success on the test is equal to another 2m to your total, so for us, that means every success is an additional half meter per IP.

I haven't had any players try to use sprinting multiple times in a combat turn, but I think I would rule that if they wanted to use another simple action to sprint, than those successes would just add to the total movement.

Now, a character that only has 2IPs cannot choose to sprint in IPs 3 or 4, because they don't have any actions, so they will just maintain their speed until the next combat turn, which then drops the total speed back to the base. So, someone running at 25m/turn with, say 3IPs, could choose to use all 6 simple actions to sprint, and thus add all those successes to the base run of 25m. So let's say someone gets 3 successes per test, that's a total of 18 successes or 36 additional meters, for a total of 51m in that turn (3 seconds)! Doing a quick conversion, that is 38mph.

The fastest human today can run a little over 23mph, so the above example doesn't seem to be insane, as we are talking about an augmented person with 3IPs.

To look at a max in my game, where we use skill caps of rating + 1, someone could potentially have 8 successes (assuming a skill rating of 7 is max) per test...obviously some insane dice rolling would have to take place, not to mention someone would have to take the running skill at rating 7 (which is a good amount of karma). So, the breakdown would be:

1IP = 57m/turn (approx. 43 mph)
2IP = 89m/turn (approx. 67 mph)
3IP = 121m/turn (approx. 89 mph)
4IP = 153m/turn (approx. 114 mph)

I think it would be near impossible to see someone roll 8 successes in a single test, let alone 8 in a row to get up to that 114 mph speed...but anyways, that's my breakdown and I don't see any real problems with the way I am running the game.

Oh, and one more thing, you don't need to spend a free action each pass to maintain your running. You have to spend a free action to start running and you can only change that in your next action phase. If you wanted to continue running, you wouldn't have to spend that free action again...but I would rule that you would need a free action to declare you wanted to stop running.
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Konsaki
post Dec 27 2006, 08:51 PM
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I think you should only be allowed 1 or 2 sprint tests, and only on your first IP.
The major thing with IP enhancers is the fact that they dont increase your movement speed, they just increase the rate at which you react to stimuli. IE you can react faster and more often.
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deek
post Dec 27 2006, 08:54 PM
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QUOTE (Konsaki)
I think you should only be allowed 1 or 2 sprint tests, and only on your first IP.
The major thing with IP enhancers is the fact that they dont increase your movement speed, they just increase the rate at which you react to stimuli. IE you can react faster and more often.

True, but if all that sprinting costs is a simple action to make a test to add to your movement, it seems logical that you could use your additional IPs to add to your speed...

The IP enhancers aren't really increasing your speed, the running skill is...but you are getting extra actions that give you the opportunity to push your body more.
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Konsaki
post Dec 27 2006, 09:00 PM
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I'm sorry, but I just dont see it happening...
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Butterblume
post Dec 27 2006, 09:42 PM
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QUOTE (deek)
To look at a max in my game, where we use skill caps of rating + 1, someone could potentially have 8 successes (assuming a skill rating of 7 is max) per test...obviously some insane dice rolling would have to take place

Even with a cap of skill rating+1, there isn't a need for insane dice rolling involved.

Let's take a look at a possible starting street sam, who incidentally is reasonably fit and has running (sprinting) on rating 4(+2), plus reflex recorder (running), strength 5(7) through bioware, Synthacardium 3 and enhanced articulation.

This would be a skill of 7 for running, with 7 (skill) + 7 (strength) + 4 (bonus dice) =18 dice. Approximately 6 successes per test... still pretty fast.

And that's for a human starting character who isn't exactly tricked out for running.


Btw: I read the rules that way that only one sprint test per combat turn counts. When doing more than one, only the best test counts. This avoids those ridiculous results ;).
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Fortune
post Dec 27 2006, 10:04 PM
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QUOTE (Konsaki @ Dec 28 2006, 08:00 AM)
I'm sorry, but I just dont see it happening...

I'm with you. I would limit the Sprinting tests to one per Turn.

I would allow that test to be made later on in the Turn than the first IP, but would calculate the results using only the remaining portion of the character's movement for that Turn.
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Ophis
post Dec 27 2006, 10:59 PM
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I go with limiting it to one sprint test per pass. This seems to keep things down to a more reasonable pace.
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deek
post Dec 27 2006, 11:00 PM
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Hmmm...maybe that is why none of my players have tried to use it more than once per turn, because that is how they interpretted it...

I must admit, I like the idea of allowing as many tests as the player has simple actions but only the highest one counts...and that may have been the way my players viewed it anyways.
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Arz
post Dec 28 2006, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (Butterblume)

Btw: I read the rules that way that only one sprint test per combat turn counts. When doing more than one, only the best test counts. This avoids those ridiculous results ;).

Could you provide a page ref for that? I'm working on a rules ref to cut back on my page flipping.

It is a very rare situation indeed for people to be running in combat time. Just to state what I implied above more clearly. For each simple spent on running the success' add 1m to your speed that pass. Please remember its a game, not reality, so it only imitates life for frame of reference.

For all you long sprinters out there[400m+] you can attribute a poor roll to "hitting the wall" when your endurance fails on the last turn.
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deek
post Dec 28 2006, 04:31 PM
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Well, actually, each success adds 2m, not 1m, to your distance that combat turn, not pass. I'm going to check out the book again to see where it might say only one test counts per combat turn...
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Butterblume
post Dec 28 2006, 04:55 PM
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QUOTE (Arz)
QUOTE (Butterblume @ Dec 27 2006, 05:42 PM)

Btw: I read the rules that way that only one sprint test per combat turn counts. When doing more than one, only the best test counts. This avoids those ridiculous results ;).

Could you provide a page ref for that?

No, that's just the way I think the rule was meant.

The rules talk of spending a simple action to increase running speed during the combat turn. It is never mentioned if taking several simple actions to increase speed is allowed or forbidden, or if they stack or not.

Never thought about it but I should probably add it to my very short houserule list, just to be on the safe side ;).
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Charon
post Dec 28 2006, 05:41 PM
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It's only common sense that you can only make one sprint test per round.

After all, your result to the test apply for that round, not that pass.

So since the movement you do in a pass is a portion of your speed for the round, if you make a test every pass you change your speed for the round and have to recalculate for every pass... yet if you are still running at the start of the next round your speed will have dropped back even though you are still willing to make running check!

I.E.

There are four pass in the round and bob has wired III. Bob has 3 success on each running check.

Turn 1

IP 1

Bob starts Running. 25 Meter + 6 Meter (3 success) / 4

Bob moves 7,75 meter

IP 2

If you allow for more sprintest test, now Bob moves 9,25 meter

IP 3

With a Third check, Bob moves 10,75 meter

IP 4

Is it a bird, is it a plane? Bob moves 12,25 meter

Turn 2

IP 1

What happened to bob? Still sprinting and making a 5 test in a row, bob now moves only 7,75 meter

IP 2

But wait! Bob is picking up speed again and moving 9,25 meter!


And so on...

It doesn't make sense. You'd need to add houserules about maintaining speed.

But since Wired aren't supposed to increase movement speed, it's simpler to simply interpret the rules as stating that only one test per round can increase speed, no?

I could swear I read that it was explicitly so somewhere but couldn't find such a reference.
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Arz
post Dec 28 2006, 07:23 PM
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Charon, remember what they say about common sense? I'm not sure what a round is to you. Is it a pass or turn? I'm not following your argument, please try again. Please.

Remember, you can be running one pass and then walking the next because moving is not an action. It just is!

Please stick to the written rules since I have enough trouble following them. If you are HRing please don't tell me, I don't care.

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Moon-Hawk
post Dec 28 2006, 07:29 PM
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[nitpick]Walking is not an action. Running is a free action (per pass). Sprinting is a simple action.[/nitpick]
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deek
post Dec 28 2006, 07:40 PM
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Ok, I am back on page 138...I've read these a few times now and have a better handle on it.

Once initiative is rolled we hit the action phase and there is a point called the "Declare Action" part of the phase. This is the only point where movement is selected and it holds in that movement until your next action phase (which is after initiative is rolled again). Remember a combat turn is only 3 seconds, so even with 4IPs, you don't get to walk, run, stop multiple times...you declare it only once, at the beginning and you are stuck with that movement until you roll initiative again.

During the declaration part, you can choose one of four options: stay stationary (no cost), walking rate (no cost), running rate (free action) or sprinting (simple action, then roll your Running+Strength test to determine how far you will move until your next declaration of movement).

Now there are some holes here, as a character with 4IPs is going to get 4 declare action phases, but based on the movement rules on page 138, the first IP is the only one where you are declaring what sort of movement you will take.

What this also brings to light is if you declared you were stationary in IP 1 and someone chucks a grenade near you, even if you have 4 IPs, you can't move to pick it up and toss it. Obviously, if its at your feet you can, but once you declare your movement in that first IP, you are locked into it until your next initiative roll. That will be a big change in strategy in my games, as I didn't restrict changing movement through IPs...it does make sense though, as we are still talking about a period of just 3 seconds...
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deek
post Dec 28 2006, 07:40 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
[nitpick]Walking is not an action. Running is a free action (per pass). Sprinting is a simple action.[/nitpick]

Heh...you beat me to it.
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DireRadiant
post Dec 28 2006, 07:41 PM
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But it's a simple action to Sprint, and I get 8 simple actions if I happen to get four IP?
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Butterblume
post Dec 28 2006, 07:47 PM
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That's what we were discussing right now. It seems kind of unreasonable :S.
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Moon-Hawk
post Dec 28 2006, 07:51 PM
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QUOTE (deek)
Remember a combat turn is only 3 seconds, so even with 4IPs, you don't get to walk, run, stop multiple times...you declare it only once, at the beginning and you are stuck with that movement until you roll initiative again.

Now there are some holes here, as a character with 4IPs is going to get 4 declare action phases, but based on the movement rules on page 138, the first IP is the only one where you are declaring what sort of movement you will take.

What this also brings to light is if you declared you were stationary in IP 1 and someone chucks a grenade near you, even if you have 4 IPs, you can't move to pick it up and toss it. Obviously, if its at your feet you can, but once you declare your movement in that first IP, you are locked into it until your next initiative roll.

The movement section pretty explicitly disagrees with you here.
QUOTE (SR4 pg138)
There are two types of movement: walking and running.  Characters may move at one of these two rates during each Initiative Pass, or they may choose to remain stationary.
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deek
post Dec 28 2006, 08:20 PM
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@Moon-Hawk

My mistake, in the example below that statement on page 138, it says "a character with only one action", which is likely refering to a character with only 1IP. I missed that detail...

So, I don't need to change the way I run my game with regards to movement, and those declaration phases do allow for changes in each IP.

Now, it sounds like a character has to decide each IP what form of movement they are in...they can choose to stand still or walk (at no cost), run (for a free action) or sprint (for a simple action). With that being said, I don't think a sprint ever stacks and it doesn't carry over to another IP, unless you don't have any actions during another IP, in which your movement is maintained until your next Declare Action phase.

So, going back to my "max's", the most successes a player can get on a run test would be 8 (due to skill caps). That means an extra 16m for the turn, but since I always break that stuff down to 4IPs, that means the most someone could increase their movement in a single IP is 4 meters.

The question now is whether I force a new test in each IP that the player gets to act. If they want to continue to sprint it will at least cost them another simple action...but I am leaning towards making them roll another test as well...
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