 Shadowrun Police, How do you play them? |
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 Dec 31 2006, 03:09 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 308 Joined: 1-June 06 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Member No.: 8,631  |
I was reading through some archived posts that had talked about the police (and other departments of law enforcement), some showing how they were different groups with different responsiblities (ie. the ATF taking down a 'ninja' shouldn't have been done because ATF isn't a 'Protect and Serve' cop), and then there's also the whole 'police suck, misuse their authority and don't care to help people' sentiment, as well as the 'Police are there to protect and serve and help out' take, so it's pretty much I'd say at least 60-40 for the cops abuse their power, from what I've seen.
However, let's get past the real-life slant, mostly because I'm sure we'll never reach common ground there, since each of our opinions are shaped from past experiences and some have had good ones and others bad ones. I want to focus on the in-game law enforcement, and how they would act. There are a few situations I've used in examples elsewhere and gotten a couple mixed answers, so I'll recreate them here: 1) You're a corporate security officer working the gate at your corporation when you see someone being attacked on the other side of your street, though they don't work for your corp. There's someone who could fill your role nearby, so you wouldn't really be leaving your post unmanned. Do you help, or do you just let it slide, knowing that any other security wouldn't make it in time? 2) You're a member of a security firm licensed by the city to maintain law and order (LS, KE, etc)and you see a mugging happen on corporate turf. Do you call corporate security, try to help yourself or igore it? 3) You're a member of a licensed security firm like the last question, and this time you see a 'smaller' crime, like speeding, obstruction of traffic, drunken disorderly, basically a non-life threatening, but still illegal situation. Do you get involved or ignore it? 4) You're part of the city's security force, and you see a small shop being mugged. It's unlikely that they have a security contract, but they are still citizens of the city, do you help the shopkeeper or ignore it? Reason I bring this up is, except for one book, SOTA: 2064 I believe, I remember reading that the security forces where there to, in essence, protect and serve. I could quote the core rulebook's passage about security groups. Also, as a secondary thought process besides what the rules say versus how we feel about cops, you have to remember that these groups are corporations and if the city decides they aren't doing a good job, they can be replaced. So, personally I would assume that Popular Opinion would factor into that equation of how good a job they were doing. I mean, if the SINned citizens, the ones paying taxes and thus funding the city, decide that they don't like the company that's running security, which to at least some degree means they are unhappy with the safety of the city, they may leave meaning less money. Or, perhaps like some cases, they will sue the police and/or the city for whatever their issue is, like a Shadowrunner's bomb having blown up a corporate warehouse and taken a chunk out of their home and the city isn't doing anything about it. That's even more of a waste of time and money. These are just my take on things, so I'm wondering what other people think about police/security firms in Shadowrun. |
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Dec 31 2006, 03:49 PM
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#2
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Well I play the SR universe as pretty dystopian, so in light of that, the police are basically there to protect the monied classess from the have nots. Mugging in Welltodoville? Lone Star will be all over it. Murder in Scumtown? File a report. Just enough order is maintained in the poverty stricken areas to prevent it spilling over into a full on war and to make sure enough of the inhabitants survive to form a labour pool. Because that's what they're paid to do. In your situations, I would say: 1. The corp security officer will do nothing because either it's not his business, or he watches helplessly because he knows he'll get fired for interfering and he only has authority on the corp property. 2. I say they drive on by. Again, the legal implications of them firing shots in corp territory would get them into no end of trouble. They may or may not contact the corp's own security for brownie points, however. It may well depend on the corp. If it were Lonestar passing Ares, then they'd probably just have a good laugh because the two corporations are rivals. They might even turn a blind eye to escaping Shadowrunners. 3. Again it depends on the circumstances, but the default would be go after them. If they're bored patrollers assigned to Poshville, they might love a chase. But then again, they might be more mindful of their public image and ignore it. After all, they don't want to accidentally find they've charged someone important. In Scumtown, they may well give chase on general principle if the forces have the upper hand in that area. If not, they'll probably just keep their heads down and pray the Halloweeners don't target them tonight. 4. If they're tax-paying, then I think they fall under municipal protection and Lone Star or K.E. would intervene. If it were some squatter-stall in the Barrens, then no. But then the Star wouldn't be there in the first place. As a general rule of thumb, go with fear of legal implications and a strong corporate self-interest. That's my Shadowrun setting, anyway. |
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Dec 31 2006, 04:03 PM
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#3
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Knight Templar Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 212 Joined: 20-June 04 From: Ipswich, UK Just South of the Stinkfens Member No.: 6,424 |
I'll try to answer your questions, but a lot of the answers will be variations of 'it depends'.
#1 I would probably call 911 and inform LS or whoever has the security contract. This could just be a diversion to allow a shadowrun to take place. I would also inform my superior on the security detail. IF, big if, it was taking place in a highly populated and visible area and the person looked high class I MIGHT go so far as to say "STOP Armed Security" and raise my weapon. I've been put there to guard the interests of my corporation; the only reason I might interfere is if it would make my corp look bad. #2 It depends if the corporation involved and my corporation get along. If they were on good terms I'd attempt to stop it; if they were just on neutral terms I would call corporate security, don't forget I wouldn't have power of arrest on their turf; if they were on bad terms I'd either ignore it or laugh and shout helpful remarks to the mugger. #3 I'm not clear whether or not this is taking place on corporate turf or on the street. If on corporate turf, I'd ignore it, it's not my problem and it would interfere with the job my corp is paying me to do (with paperwork etc.). If it's on the street I'd take notice, after all someone speeding could be a shadowrunner making their getaway. #4 I'm assuming here that the shop is not corp extra-territorial territory. This is what my corp has hired me to do - keep law and order in the city - I'd step in. If the shop is obviously from an enemy corp, one that mine is having a REAL problem with, AND there are no cameras there, AND it's in an out of the way location, AND it's getting near my end of shift I might ignore it. Hope that helps. :) |
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Dec 31 2006, 04:25 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 308 Joined: 1-June 06 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Member No.: 8,631 |
My take on cops is a mixed bag. They are mostly patrolling in the monied areas, keeping the PR ratings high to keep them in contract for another term. However, I also have tossed around the idea that the corps (both those that are the police and those that are multinational corps) would to one degree or another have some sort of project for an effective security force, be it mass produced clones (skilled, perhaps, but at the same time Shadowrun characters wouldn't last against large numbers at one time since KP and luck would run out) or some sort of security bot/drone/whatever like ED-209 or Robocop or any other such idea. Basically, for the megacorps, it would be their security plan to try and keep from all the losses that Shadowruns are bringing on. After all, not only are you paying these security a paycheck, they also have health care, a pension and all that. It would be similar with the security forces dealing with the city, but to an added advantage that any sort of approach that allows you to meet the enemy and actually stand up to them pretty much assures you're going to keep your job. Thus, the bigwigs are still going to be making money. However, these security programs are funded at different rates depending on the corp, and their focus is different depending on the corp. A cybernetics giant might be trying for a Robocop, while a Computer focused company may be working on an advanced network of drones controlled by a hive mind SK or some such. I can see magical defenses being looked at as well. Also, with SirBedevere and the 'It depends' answer; It is situational, I agree, but much like with knasser, it shows off your mindset on the issue. Your answers are those of 'Well, I could get involved, but only if it's not going to bite me in the ass.' And as an addenum, depending on why you're on bad or neutral terms with the corp, might helping them out not be a good idea? It might just be a drop in the bucket, but using your own it depends, then maybe you helping out will bring the corp back to your side. (I've had that happen in X-Com Apoc, so I figured I'd mention it). And, given the responses I've seen, another question comes to mind; Let's say a high class, monied, citizen, the kind you're out to protect, gets geeked in a slummy low-class part of town. Would the police write it off, or try to solve the case? Or, perhaps, in interests of PR and make it look like they're doing something, round up a low-life or two (dozen) and put them in jail for the murder. Edit: One thing I just thought of doing with some of the responses from this thread and the others I've read about the security, is take them and try and use them in-game. Public opinion polls, for example, or random conversations you hear on the street. Add a little color to the game, sort of like in games like Thief or Deus Ex where you hear guards having conversations. |
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Dec 31 2006, 05:06 PM
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#5
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Knight Templar Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 212 Joined: 20-June 04 From: Ipswich, UK Just South of the Stinkfens Member No.: 6,424 |
I was trying to myself in the cops shoes. Someone gung-ho might do more but I think that most would be content to do their jobs and hope their ass doesn't get bitten off.
Help a rival corp? It's a buyers market for jobs and I wouldn't want to offend my boss. Most corps wouldn't want low level grunts doing anything creative, so unless the cops got orders to help out a rival corp I doubt they would help. As a RL example bouncers at a club in my home town watched a fight that ended in a stabbing right outside the club but as it wasn't on premises they didn't even call the local cops! Don't forget that the vast majority of shadowruns are done at corporate behest. Trying to stop all shadowruns would deprive corps of a major ability to get at their rivals. Corps don't want to stop shadowruns, they just want plausible denyability :D To your new question I'm going to have to answer 'it depends' :D What I think it would depend on is the personality of the local precinct captain. If he thinks of himself as a 'cop' he would probably investigate. If he thinks of himself as a 'corporate man' he would probably sling some locals into gaol as they can't prove that they're NOT guilty. Crime solved, looks good on the six o'clock news. He might still investigate what really happened to find out WHY Mr. Suit was where he was and see if that information could benefit him and his corp. By the way knasser, I really liked your take on SRs dystopia. |
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Dec 31 2006, 08:25 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 17-June 02 From: Concord University, Athens, WV Member No.: 2,880 |
How NPCs in my games would usually react...
1) Call in a report to the Star if I'm in a good mood. If not, just turn the radio up and ignore them. 2) Most likely, standard procedure is to call it in and let the corp sec know about it, then leave it to them to handle. But there are probably a few differences between the procedure and "in action", such as LS not bothering to call in a disturbance on Ares property. 3) Get involved if I'm bored, otherwise just ignore it. Maybe make sure they don't hurt themselves if they're really drunk. You know, if nothing else is going on, and I feel like trying. 4) Unless they're under corp extraterritoriality, it's a crime being commited in the city, and that's under the contract. So I guess I have to. |
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Jan 2 2007, 04:37 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348 |
First of all, this is a distopian setting. Whole sections of the city have no police presence at all. According to New Seattle, in a B or C rating area, Lone Star only responds if there is an explosion, cannon, or automatic weapons fire and someone calls it in. I don’t generally run things as that distopian. American in the 20’s and 30’s or Batman’s Gotham seem good models – the average cop is overworked and underpaid, many will look the other way on minor things, some are criminals or working closely with them, and your rights are very dependant on how important you are.
You might not be leaving your post unmanned, but you’re walking away from your job to do something else. That’s not good for long-term employment aspects. And there’s a lot unanswered in this question. What rating is the neighborhood outside? How do I know the person being attacked is not from my corporation? How important and/or well-to-do does the victim appear to be? Is the attack an attempted mugging, a rape, a murder, a kidnapping, or what? How do I know other security won’t arrive in time? Is the attack taking place on the turf of another corp or public areas which are under Lone Star’s jurisdiction? How well is my company getting along with Lone Star or whatever the other security company is? Are they likely to get upset with my company if I poach on their jurisdiction? How many attackers? How well armed and armored are they? Do they appear to be gang members? My general response, which could change based on the answers to the other questions is: 1) I train some of our sensors on the incident. We need to know what’s going on and if possible ID both victim and attackers. The other security corp might want it as evidence (which nets my company money) or it could be used to embarrass them (which also helps my company). 2) I raise a low level alert and inform my boss. There’s a decent chance that this could be a distraction created by Shadowrunners, after all, it’s right outside our gate. This covers my butt (good for job security), gets me backup (good for my chances of survival), and dumps the problem in my boss’ lap. 3) If I know the victim is someone important – a corporate figure, politician, mob boss, celebrity, media, etc. I inform my boss and immediately request backup. I am not the star of an action movie, I want backup. Drones loaded with stun gas or gel rounds or a mage with Stunball would be preferred.
How well is my company getting along with the other security company? How many attackers? How well armed and armored are they? Do the attacker(s) appear to also be members of the other corporation? Again, I train sensors on the incident and call the incident in. If it looks like the attackers will be fleeing the extraterritorial area, I inform dispatch as well as informing them if the attackers have any obvious illegal ware (or other stuff) on them that would justify a stop. I call for backup if it seems likely this incident will spill into areas my company has jurisdiction on. Under no circumstances to I go into extraterritorial areas, they might shoot me just to play it safe.
How well is my company getting along with the other security company? How many criminals? How well armed and armored are they? Do the criminals appear to also be members of the other corporation? In general, I ignore this, this is the job of the other Corp. The only likely exception is if it looks likely the speeder will be entering city territory, which is my company’s jurisdiction. In this case, I inform dispatch and see what develops.
What Rating is the neighborhood? How many criminals? How well armed and armored are they? Do the criminals appear to be mob members, gangers, freelance criminals, or what? In general, this is my job. I train sensors on the scene, call the incident in, and request backup. (I want to reduce crime statistics, not become one.) Again, an area Stun effect, whether delivered by drone or mage would be preferred.
Quite true. The other concern is that the ‘police’ are a for-profit corporation. If they spend too much on actual law enforcement, they don’t turn a profit
This is why Lone Star has a Public Relations Department. And the right members of the press in their pocket so they look good. And the right members of the mob in their pocket so crime statistics look good. And the right members of the government in their pocket so they keep the contract anyway.
This is why Lone Star has lawyers. If nothing else, they can point out that said homeowner should have been properly insured and that the proper target for a lawsuit is the corporation whose warehouse blew up as obviously their inadequate security caused the incident in the first place. Worst case, hiring Runners to tidy up this little problem is a lot cheaper than paying out a large lawsuit. (The homeowner’s insurance company and the Corp whose warehouse blew up may have a similar idea.) Getting word onto the street that said homeowner could positively identify one of the Runners is another good way to tidy up this little problem. |
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Jan 2 2007, 05:14 AM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
2 words: Rodney King.
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Jan 2 2007, 06:34 AM
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#9
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
You let them attack your cops before they subdue him?
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Jan 2 2007, 07:09 AM
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#10
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
I thought this was going to be about the SR police that kick your door in when canon is broken playing SR.
Or maybe about our new, pro-active moderators. |
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Jan 2 2007, 07:16 AM
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#11
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Damn Gaming Police.
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Jan 2 2007, 10:36 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 908 Joined: 31-March 05 From: Georgia Member No.: 7,270 |
While I think most people nailed the LS/KE Corp-think mentality pretty well, I'd point out that as NPCs, the security folks are people, so they can (and should) vary. While they shouldn't intervene in some cases, they may anyway, because the security guard is (a good two shoes, bored, psychotic) or when they should intervene they may not because (they hate their job, they weren't paying attention, they just don't care anymore)
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Jan 2 2007, 10:57 PM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Just remember that a protracted beating using Unarmed Combat instead of stun batons in which your character gets utterly punked due to the Friends in Melee rule is more exuisitely humiliating than it would be if your character were quickly and efficiently taken down either with stun batons or ruger thunderbolts. It's all about waking up with a S physical wound or worse due to being pummelled continually after losing consciousness. Actually, under the SR3 rules it's extremely easy to kill someone using unarmed combat by beating them after losing consciousness since the stun damage at that point just becomes physical damage. |
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Jan 2 2007, 11:08 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 308 Joined: 1-June 06 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Member No.: 8,631 |
It's actually all about waking up after a S physical wound or worse due to being pummelled continually after losing consciousness and finding that some of your organs have been removed. ;P And you don't need to keep being them after they lose consciousness unless you don't have any sort of weapon or sharp stick or anything around. Knock them out and them give them a lobotomy using a tree branch, for example. ;) |
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Jan 2 2007, 11:19 PM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
That's actually a wonderfully horrific idea. Maybe it would be good for a Halloween adventure or something. A player character who is pummelled unconscious in some situation wakes up with certain organs removed. The pain is excruciating and the nausea is almost utterly overpowering. Unless the PC gets new organs right away he or she dies in about a day or so. |
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Jan 2 2007, 11:39 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Knasser and some others did a good job (meaning they have the same opinion than me).
Just to get it in writing, security/law enforcement guys function after two axioms 1. I don't want to die 2. I don't want to get fired Keeping that in mind, most encounters can be resolved realistically. |
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Jan 3 2007, 12:45 AM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
1) I probably wouldn't interfere, because it would cost me my job. I'd definitely call in The Star though, and since we're in a corp sector their response should be fairly quick. If it were really desperate I might ask my chief if I could stop it "for the company image."
2) Like above, I'd be worried about losing my job. I assume however that the city and the various corps have different arrangements about what is permissable. I would think most corps would be fine with having a mugging stopped as long as it didn't involve the cop penetrating an actual corporate building. Having people robbed, beaten, or worse on your property is bad PR. 3) I'd let it slide. If it looked suspicious or I was in a paranoid mood I might alert the corp. That drunken guy mumbling to himself in the lawn might be a lookout. 4) The contract is with the city, not each individual shop. So yeah, I'd stop it. |
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Jan 3 2007, 01:50 AM
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#18
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...it would be interesting to get the "Non UCAS" angle.
In the NANs as well as the NEEC, the police forces are often run by the respective governments rather than private contractors. In some nations they are borderline paramilitary organisations (eg: the UK's National Police and Austria's Gendarme). |
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Jan 3 2007, 02:01 AM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
When you talk about paramilitary police, three countries in particular come to mind:
France, Gendarmerie Nationale Spain, Guardia Civil Italy, Carabinieri Those countries have normal police forces as well, these paramilitary units mainly provide security in rural areas (where reinforcements are a long way away) and hot spots (like airports). |
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Jan 3 2007, 05:15 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
In my own oppinion it's really hard to say. I mean from RL experience I've found the reactions of security guards and police varries a great deal.
Some are a little overzealous. Others, will do what they fell is 'right'. They'll properly file all their reports, they'll give a little leniancy where they feel it's deserved, and come down hard on those they see as the 'real' criminals. Some are flat out lazy and couldnt be bothered to do anything that would involve alot of work for them. Others go on abit of a powertrip, and sometimes exceed their authority, then try to cover it up when they go over that line. Yet more are to one degree or another 'crooked'. Around where I live there's plenty of rumors of a few specific cops selling drugs out of their cruisers. And, knowing the history of the local police force, I'm sure thats quite true in a few specific incidents. This city afterall -does- have a few crooked cops. But thats something you'll find pretty much in any major city. At least one cop somewhere will be on the take or doing -something- illegal on a fairly regular basis. One good source for ideas oddly enough to me, seems to come from some of the old punisher comics. More to the point the 'future' punisher versions. Specifically the Punisher 2099 series. In this instance the Punisher actually is a private sec corp cop who comes across the punisher's journals and decides to go down the same route himself. Since crime is rampant, and the wealthy can allways buy their way free of any crime. At one point for example in I beilve it's the first comic of that series there's this one guy being chased by organ leggers. He calls in for help but the private sec corp tells him hes out of luck because his contract expired last week. He's promptly turned into a statistic only to be avenged by the punisher. Wiki Punisher 2099 entry for reference. Honestly, I think your quite likely to have abit of a mix as you do today. And thats really how I portray them. The only real difference is the ones that abuse power can in many cases do so without any risk of concequence. |
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Jan 3 2007, 06:05 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 308 Joined: 1-June 06 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Member No.: 8,631 |
That's pretty much the way that I see it, there are good and there are some bad. I just tend to see people going under the assumption that all cops are crooked and they don't care any more. There's dirty cops, there's cops who could care less, etc. And yes, some people in power can use their power to get away with a lot; an example is the first Robocop movie, where an executive uses their power to do bad things. And if you've seen the Robocop TV show, which had more time to do more complex stories, you'll see that they fleshed out the OCP chairman more, made him human and even gave him a heart. He helped the people living in Old Detroit, rather than just trying to force them out for Delta City like in the movie (since the series never acknowledged Robocop 2 or 3). Speaking of Robocop 3; "Let's show 'em how real cops kick ass." and: "Think of your family." "I'm thinking I have to go home and face them." Quotes from the movie from police officers when they were asked to evict people from their homes since, as its 'Not work for police' as they also said. And I know Shadowrun is a dystopa and I know what dystopia means, and that yes, it is the opposite of a utopia. However, look at pretty much every cyberpunk themed movie; there's a character who has hope and fights to make things better and in some cases they even succeed. So, if there's hope in those situaitons (like Mad Max for example) how come there can't be hope, there can't be good people in things like Shadowrun? I'm trying to think of examples of it being security or police, and all that's coming to mind right now is Timecop. :P Though, I suppose another Van Damme movie; Universal Soldiers does work for that hope in a dark world and actually makes a change that brings hope back. |
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Jan 3 2007, 06:35 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116 |
Theres allways hope in shadowrun!
You murder someone for money and hope to get away with it! You sell little timmy to organ leggers and hope his parents never find out! The parents find out and hire other runners to take you out in hope of revenge! Jimmy Jones the runner lives to see retirement, has kides, dies of old age hoping that his kids will never have to live on the hard streets as he did. Only for those same kids to be forced into it after his death to make up for his unknown crossing of a great dragon early in his career, where uppon they all meet an untimely end! The hardboiled detective gives up his life in hope that he'll save the life of a little girl. Which he does, she just grows up to become an exotic dancer/hooker. See? Allways hope. That doenst mean it all works out for the best in the end however. |
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Jan 3 2007, 06:37 AM
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#23
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Indeed. That's what deputy sheriffs are for. |
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Jan 3 2007, 04:00 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 16-December 05 From: new jack city Member No.: 8,077 |
If a group breaks into a Ares compound or building that was near or in downtown, would the guards call LS, KE, or what? Do guards in corps call LS or do they call their own goon squads?
ps. did they update those lonestar uniforms with their silly glasses and the mage with the cape with swirls.. just wondering. ;) |
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Jan 3 2007, 06:24 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 87 Joined: 16-December 06 From: Kabul, Afg. Member No.: 10,381 |
Is there an actual criminal code that Lone Star, Knight Errant uses? (at least as a sort of set of guidelines?) I read on another thread that certain actions were listed as illegal and would get runner's on a list for things other than just being runnners. Didn't see anything like it in the SR4 basic book. Maybe it's hiding in another book somewhere?
I suppose I could just come up with a criminal code, but the Canon Police might kick in my door... |
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