Breeching Barriers, Using the SR3 Firing Through Rules Options

[Drraagh]

I had a discussion with someone a while back about a discrepancy with the Firing Through versus Breaking Through rules of the Barriers. P124-125 of the BBB.

On Firing through, you're looking at a 2*Barrier Rating versus Edged Weapons, and against Blunt Weapons it's Standard Rating. On breaking through, the barrier has twice its normal rating against all attacks. But, then under the Barrier Effect Table, they were saying that since you can put a hole in the wall if you do more power than the Barrier Rating, they were claiming they could attack the 'air' on the other side of the wall and thus ignore the double barrier rating since they were attacking a target on the other side of the wall instead of breeching the wall.

Of course, my answer was no, you can't do that. I used a bit of logical justification (or at least what I assumed could be logical) that the damage you're doing with blunt is physical force rippling through the wall (sort of like the whole Bowling Ball on the bed not knocking over the glass) and the other part was just 'the rules are there for both circumstances', so since you're not having a physical target you're breeching it.

However, their idea got me thinking, is there any way you could take advantage of those rules besides keeping some tools on your person to cut/burn/blow your way through the walls? Never know when you'll be trapped in a room and the walls are closing in on you or something.

Edit: A second thought occured to me after reading some of the thermographic seeing through walls posts; Could you use thermographics to find a heat variance for plumbing, air vents/ducts, electronics wiring, etc; and use that as a target to attack? Or some sort of similar approch such as the building's blueprints showing you where to hit the wall at?

[Slump]

Offhand, looking at what you've typed, you could ignore the double-rating by shooting at the 'air' on the other side of the barrier.

The result? A few small holes in the wall. Now, if you wanted to actually break down the wall (or part thereof) so that *you* could get through, then you'd have to do it the hard way.

[Thane36425]

Shooting through a wall isn't as easy as the SR4 rules make it sound. Some of the old military field manuals had charts showing how many of which type of bullet it would take to punch a hole through a wall of a given thickness and material. I'm not sure where my copies are right off hand. However, it was quite a few, probably more than the typical runner would be carrying.

Schematics and thermal imaging could show you weak points in the wall. Schematics could show what walls were made of and such, which might mean taking a round about route in to breech a series of low rated walls rather than the one high rating.

But as to the main point, targeting the air behind the wall should be a no go. The wall is still the wall no matter how you try to get around it. It is still going to take the same overall amount of force to break through whether you are targeting it directly or not.

[Kagetenshi]

You aren't visualizing it correctly. The question is, is the aim "get a bullet into something on the other side of the wall" or "create a hole in the wall large enough to do something through". The first is indeed easier than the second with most firearms.

~J

[Fix-it]

Then again, "people" in this game are able to carry around such "firearms" as miniguns and assault cannons, so common sense need be stretched to fit.

[Wounded Ronin]

According to the video game Delta Force: Black Hawk Down, miniguns just fire out 7.62 NATO rounds at ridiculously high rates.

[Austere Emancipa...]

The weapon most commonly called a minigun these days is probably the M134 which does indeed fire the 7.62x51mm NATO. Firing M80 Ball at 50 rounds/sec, which the latest model (M134D) is usually fixed at, that's 2 seconds to smash a 7" diameter hole through an 8" reinforced concrete wall at 25-100 meters, or around four times as much to get a hole you can crawl through. IRL, then, breaching almost any sort of wall with a small arm so that a person can pass through it means several hundred, even thousand, rounds fired.

Even with the Mk 19 40mm AGL firing HEDP, rounds much better suited to blasting down a wall than what an "assault cannon" is likely to fire, you would need to fire several, even several dozen rounds to make a large enough hole to pass through a reinforced concrete wall.

In SR3, of course, a single EX-Ex pistol shot is sometimes enough.

[SL James]

Magic!

[Slump]

[Austere Emancipa...]

The heavier 7.62x39mm bullet stays intact better as it impacts hard, brittle and thick materials at very close ranges since it's moving slower than the 5.56x45mm M855.

One reason I'm prone to say small arms are pretty crap at penetrating outer walls is that I'm sitting in a room all walls of which are about 8+" reinforced concrete, which is way tougher to penetrate than anything they test the small arms against in those clips. If you're in a neighborhood where most walls are only as thick as thermal insulation requires you'll be much better off. Actually breaching a wall with a small arm will still require a shitload of ammo -- consider the very small holes the bursts from the M249 make in the light brick and cinderblock walls.

[Thane36425]

The 5.56mm in the M16 isn't a very good round, especially when fired from the short barrels preffered today. As you can see in these videos, it can't penetrate any serious which is a major drawback when the enemies weapons can. That's why a lot of the troops in Iraq like having one of the old M14's around so they can shoot through walls and cover at the bad guys behind it.

Currently there is a push to switch to a more powerful round and there are a number of contenders. Probably never happen though: too much burueacracy.

[Austere Emancipa...]

There aren't that many walls around that a burst of 5.56x45mm M855 can't penetrate but a single 7.62x51mm M80 can. If you want to kill someone hiding behind a wall, an M249 is probably a better bet than an M14.

Logistics and commonality are a rather more likely reason for not switching over to the 6.#x4#s than bureaucracy.

[Wounded Ronin]

[mfb]

i've tried not to say anything, but the mental image of a wall standing around with its pants down around its ankles is hilarious.

[Drraagh]

Perhaps I've mistilted the post, since it was initially about using melee weapons, not guns. Just that the section in the book was called Firing Through, IIRC. But then I got the answer I was looking for anyway, and discussing guns is more interesting than discussing other weapons. After all, with guns you can compare many different kinds on various levels, and with melee weapons, I think the most comparisons I've seen done are along the lines of: A katana does more damage than a sword, so I'm getting a katana. It looks cooler anyway.


Of course, me, I had a character who got a rapier as their sword, since they had been taking fencing for years. Maybe not practical, but it was fun.

[Wounded Ronin]

[Drraagh]

[eidolon]

Easy. Attach multiple cyber arms! Uber swordsman ninja killer.

(Actually, depending on your style of game, a crazy whirling multi-armed cyber-swordsman might be kinda cool. :D)

[Drraagh]

Multiple sword arms, then upgrade quickness and reaction to become a whirling dervish.

[Wounded Ronin]

[Fortune]

Why don't you just assign the Katana 'normal Sword Damage' when using it one-handed, and give it its normal Damage Code when used with both hands?