 Magical Tradition Percentages, How Many of Each Tradition? |
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 Jan 3 2007, 09:26 AM
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#26
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081  |
A theurg is a theurg. What I meant was that being a christian doesn't mean you have to be a theurg. You can still be a hermetic or a shaman or whatever (under certain restrictions). |
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Jan 3 2007, 09:48 AM
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#27
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,468 Joined: 5-December 06 From: Somewhere in the Flooding, CalFree Member No.: 10,215 |
I would say a rough mix of hermetic and shamanistic, with a dash of Shinto thrown in due to large Yakuza influence in the free state. I would also say that there is a small Buddhist population around San Fran, with every other practitioner going by the alias Kerouac, Snyder, or Ginsberg. I have though a bit about that idea since I am working on a Buddhist mage who comes out of San Francisco, and his master's alias was Keroauc. |
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Jan 3 2007, 09:59 AM
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#28
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Yeah, under the right condition. The conditions being that you are a shaman. You use a shamanic totem and call on spirits of nature to aid you with their power. Not on God, his angels and his saints. On Father Wolf, your ancestors and the spirits who surround you. And then you somehow reconcile that with your christian faith (like Twist from the first SR trilogy ever). But you were arguing that someone mentored by Saint-George the Dragonslayer and who prays to God for divine intercession could be a shaman... If that is a shaman, every non-hermetic is a shaman! |
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Jan 3 2007, 10:05 AM
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#29
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
I admit I might still be thinking of magic in SR3 style :).
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Jan 3 2007, 01:58 PM
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#30
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,598 Joined: 24-May 03 Member No.: 4,629 |
Don't forget a hefty batch of crystal-rubbing New Age types (The image of a 70 year old surfer in Bermuda shorts going all Obi-Wan ... too fun) and probably a bunch of others. I'm *inclined* to say that the majority would have been Shamans, but, lots of 'em went toxic, leaving Hermetics the majority by accident. Cali's weird, tho, and one of the older books that I never managed to grab, so, not sure. |
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Jan 3 2007, 02:36 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234 |
I would only point out that current-day statistics about organized religion aren't a very good model for SR timeline. It is a well-known fact that neo pagan religions had a massive upswing of popularity due to the Awakening and likely rival major Abrahamic and Eastern traditional religions for numbers and influence.
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Jan 3 2007, 04:08 PM
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#32
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Yeah, looks to me like you're thinking in an SR3 context. Mechanically, there's very little difference in shamanism and hermeticism now (SR4), so there's no real reason to think of Christian hermetics versus Christian shamans. After all, now a Christian hermetic (or theurge) can have a mentor spirit without being a shaman. |
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Jan 3 2007, 05:20 PM
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#33
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
I would argue that. At least from a Catholic standpoint. No matter how bad a catholic I am I still consider myself a Catholic. The same holds true for everyone else I know who is Catholic. Even if they haven't been to church in years or think that the Pope is a whack-o they still consider themselves part of the faith. Heck the rebels in Aztlan group themselves around their religion to help define their resistance, not just region or political motivation. Many of their leaders are said to be priests. If anything the events of SR drove more people to religion and those new converts chose a higher percentage of "new age" religions (perhaps even the Egyptian or Norse pantheon) but their numbers would still be small relatively. The spread between them and the Abrahamic/Eastern religions would have shrunk however. That means less athiests/agnostics and more fringe religions. |
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Jan 3 2007, 05:57 PM
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#34
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Shadowrun aside, the percentage of Catholics in the world is dropping in the real world present. Same with most mainstream religions (Islam and Buddhism continue to rise, I believe, as do a number of alternative religions like Wicca). |
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Jan 3 2007, 07:48 PM
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#35
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
How do religions that have been around for hundreds or thousands of years with millions of followers not count as "mainstream?"
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Jan 3 2007, 08:35 PM
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#36
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Actually according to a London School of Economics survey for the UN in 2005, of the majors only Catholicism is on the slide and then only in the first world. In the developing world, South America, and in parts of the Far East (China for instance) Catholicism is actually on the rise. Protestantism and particularly the Evangelical denominations are gaining marginally, mostly on their home turf (ie. conservative North America). Orthodox Christianity has had a slight rise since the early 90s. Judaism is pretty stable neither increasing nor decreasing significantly. Islam is the biggest growing religion in the world and Hinduism is also growing (despite it being one of the few faiths that doesn't actually have "conversion" doctrine built in and being essentially ethnically-rooted). The far-eastern religions also remain popular in their traditional playgrounds despite industrialization and the apparent materialism of modern Asian culture. Organized religion and particularly the major faiths are actually bigger powerplayers than many of us would like to think. |
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Jan 3 2007, 09:01 PM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Well, obviously they can't all be growing in %, which is measure or relative influence.
You mean they're growing in numbers, I assume. |
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Jan 4 2007, 12:05 AM
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#38
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I meant in terms of total number of practicing believers. Growth in numbers averages in the 0.1-0.3% range per annum globally according to the report I cited with Islam closer to 0.5% and Catholicism at 0,05%. There are no surveys or analysis that I know that take into account anything as murky as "influence." The only distinction that is normally made is between practicing believers and "census" believers (sorry but I can't for the life of me recall the proper nomenclature used and I'm away from my references, but the latter are the "yeah, I'm Catholic, only been to church twice but I come from an old Irish Catholic family"-type that show up in official government figures).
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Jan 4 2007, 04:22 AM
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#39
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
If the population of the Earth is growing at a faster rate than that of the practicioner of a faith, that faith is losing ground and it's being slowly marginalized. In the past years, World population grew by 1,5% per annum so the proportion of believers of all major faiths wouldn't actually be increasing according to your numbers. They don't keep up with the increased population, which isn't good for them. Of course, at that rate it'll take a long time to be clearly felt and within 4 years by SR timeline is the awakening which would most likely reverse the trend. |
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Jan 4 2007, 05:07 PM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Um in SOE,they talk about 1 billion Catholics.. |
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Jan 4 2007, 05:10 PM
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#41
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Um, Yahuza playing a major role in magical tradition in California? Um no. |
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Jan 4 2007, 10:24 PM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,468 Joined: 5-December 06 From: Somewhere in the Flooding, CalFree Member No.: 10,215 |
Actually I would say yes. A great influx of the Yakuza in the CFS means an overall great japanese influence in the state. With that influence it would be safe to say that Japanese religion comes along with them, aka Shinto. I am not saying that the Yakuza are playing a major role in California religion, but I am saying that they woukd play a larger role in the perentage of magic traditions in the CSF. Only 1% of the population is magically active...Californias current population is 33 million, which woud make 300,000 awakened in the state. Now of that one percent I don't quite know the percentage that makes up actual mages and shamans and not adepts and those with knacks or astral sight. But that leaves a smaller number of total awakened practicing any given tradition in the CSF. Now, the Yakuza would be set up in every major sprawl in the CSF and most of the smaller ones, giving them a pretty even distribution across the state. I am not saying that they are a majority, but they a considerable part of the minority and a consideration for one of the traditions being practiced in the CSF. Also see that I said:
Major role? Dash =/= Major. |
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Jan 5 2007, 01:34 AM
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#43
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,598 Joined: 24-May 03 Member No.: 4,629 |
So, anyone have Clifornia Free State handy, to see what they say, if anything?
We know that the CAS and UCAS are equal in terms of magical power, despite the UCAS being more populous ... turns out the witches of Appalachia have some *serious* mojo. It's *assumed*, tho not proven, that the NAN have higher magical powers than the CAS or UCAS... they certainly did back in the 20-teens, but now? Not so much. Heck, due to their smaller populations, loss of Aztlan, and loss of the Tir, they might actually have just a tiny sliver of UCAS magical might. Scary, huh? -- Wak, had to edit out 8 'tehs' in this one. Gah. |
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Jan 5 2007, 05:57 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 29-December 06 Member No.: 10,483 |
However this brings up another intersting question, are more mages Secular AKA Hermetics, Chaos mages, Black Mages, and the Wujen or are more religous? Just looking at numbers of traditions. There are about four more or less non-religous and then about sixteen religiously influenced traditions. However then there are wild cards like the Druids who actually have very religious factions, and then very rationalist secular traditions. Also there is a thaumaturgy taught in schools, but my impression was that a practioner doesn't exactly choose his own tradition. If you awaken as a Druid your about as likely to change that as changing the fact your an Ork. Of course if I'm wrong that means a pair of twins that both awaken as mages could have one be trained as a Hermetic and the other be a Shaman simply due to training. This would be supported by the fact that the traditions seem to be regional. You have the Wujen in China, the Shamans in NAN. Druids in England. Aborginal in Australia, and so forth.
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Jan 5 2007, 07:43 AM
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#45
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Well *if* I'm remembering correctly in Third Edition the character's Totem selected him/her, not the other way around, but personally in Fourth I'm inclined to say that you are whatever tradition you were trained/believe, but then again lately I've been mistaken on several rules questions... *winks*
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Jan 5 2007, 08:08 AM
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#46
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,468 Joined: 5-December 06 From: Somewhere in the Flooding, CalFree Member No.: 10,215 |
In Third yes, the totem did select the shaman. And in the fourth edition, as I have reda it, mentor spirits still choose the magician, not the other way around. But it is true than you do have some leeway in your tradition. When a child awakens there is no tradition predetermined for him. The tradition is established as part of the training that the child receives to develop his magic A child that is trained in hermetic ways will moost likely become a hermetic mage, unless he can completely change his view of how magic works. The tradition is basically how the magician views magic as working and how they train theeir mind to do the magic that they do. A hermetic sees it in formulas and a shaman sees it as life force or some other mojo stuff. Each tradition has a different view on how they work magic, but that doesn't mean they are working different magic/ It is all the same mojo just through different outlets (magicians).
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Jan 5 2007, 05:23 PM
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#47
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Wujen are actually a religious tradition--they are Taoist sorcerors.
In my games choice of tradition is a choice. I'd even allow a player to change if he was able to RP it well over the course of MANY sessions. However, mentors still act like SR3 magic. They choose you not the other way around. St. George came to you because you ARE the dragonslayer archetype. IMO, any Shinto influence in CFS wouldn't have come from the Yak. May as well say that the Yak cause big shinto influence everywhere if that were the case. Don't think there are too many Shinto in St. Paul/Minneapolis but you can bet there there's probably at least one group of Yaks there. The Shinto influence in CFS probably largely comes from the recent immigration of Japanese to the area due to the occupation--sararimen, politicos, soldiers, settlers, etc. Added to this would be all the turncoats who turn "Japanese" to try and fit into the new power structure. |
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Jan 5 2007, 06:38 PM
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#48
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Yes, Shinto is common in the CFS, especially centered around San Francisco, and yes, it's because of Japanese immigrants and not the Yakuza (though Yakuza count as Japanese immigrants). As is mentioned in Street Magic, Shinto is also found pretty much everywhere on the globe where the Japanacorps reach, because many of them work Shinto rituals into daily corporate life.
Buddhism, as a religion, is also common in the California Free State, but Buddhism as a magical tradition is less so. Keep in mind that Street Magic says that the magical tradition of Buddhism is based on Vajrayana Buddhism, which is not the Zen Buddhism commonly associated with Japan (though there is a school of Vajrayana Buddhism in Japan called Shingon Buddhism). But is perfectly normal in Japan to be a Shinto priest and still practice Buddhism, meaning you can use the Shinto tradition for magic and still follow the religious practice of Buddhism. Likewise with Chinese who follow Wujen/Wuxia as a magical tradition but are practicing Buddhists. |
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Jan 6 2007, 05:46 AM
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#49
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
In the end I find that there are either way to few Traditions or way to many in the book.
Hinduism has many different gods and goddesses, and the way they see the world and magic is completely different. THe same thing for any religion in the world that numbers in the millions if not billions. The fact is that from many realigns I can see, reason for combat spells to be linked to fire,water,air,earth,man, beast, plant, task.... Well any of them. THis is true for health, or any other spell category . It is even worse with things like "hermetics" . because ever one knows all scientists agree on everything, expesially paretical and wave... |
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Feb 21 2007, 06:29 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 142 Joined: 29-March 06 From: Quebec, Canada Member No.: 8,415 |
Make me wonder... In (my) Quebec, what would be the main tradition(s)? A reawakened Theurgy? o.ô It would sounds a bit strange, considering the Quiet Rebolution....
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