500 point games...good or bad? Options

[Begisle]

I'm starting a game this Friday and was wondering what others thought about having players use 500bp instead of 400

We also will be using the variant rules of 4+ and exploding 6s(sorry long time Earthdawn player and this way feels more comfortable to me)

[Charon]

For a standard campaign that will last 20+ sessions, bad.

For a short scenario, (can be) good.

For a campaign based on a chapter format where you'll play in alternance 3 to 5 group, none of which will play more than 5-6 sessions, good. Though not all groups should be at 500 BP. Variety is a good thing.

For a first campaign, very bad.

[Glyph]

500 build points is high-powered campaign level. I disagree that it is bad for campaigns lasting 20+ sessions, as characters will still have plenty to spend their Karma on. However, you need to be aware that using 500 points will create very effective shadowrunners. Even with 400 points, you can make runners who sling dice in the high teens for their primary skill. With 500 points, they will be able to do so without needing to sacrifice in any other areas.

At 500 points, you could even make a halfway-decent technomancer. :eek:

So as far as good or bad, I give a qualified good. It is good... if it is your intention to have a high-powered campaign.

[Grinder]

[TBRMInsanity]

A 500 point game is ok. But tailor your missions around the fact that your players are more powerful. IE you have to run your games as if the SR are well established SR that have been working as a team so far. If you have any newbies in your group this may be a problem.

[Wakshaani]

*Waves the 320 pt flag*

C'mon down to Rookie World! It's cool down here!

[ChicagosFinest]

What do you have to work for or look forward to?

[Kyoto Kid]

...In SR3 we used the high powered rules from MrJ's LBB. Admittedly it was a short run (Brainscan) and we had a small group of players (3 - 4). Was able to make a kick butt decker/sam (Diamond Ice) who had her own custom deck and programmes (2 mil in resources) and we still barely made it through the module.

I will be using the same rule option for the re-run of my Rhapsody arc as well and do not see much of an issue handling the higher powered characters considering the difficulty level the campaign is set at.

[Ophis]

[deek]

I run a campaign bi-weekly, 4-5 hour sessions. We are in our 15th session...the only real change we made was increasing the karma rewards...still started with 400 BP at chargen, but each session, regardless of activity, I give out a base of 10 karma...then I add onto that the "normal" karma rewards for runs and stuff.

I would consider this a higher-powered campaign, but it works well and everyone is having fun. There hasn't been a ton of in-game downtime and because of the accelerated reward system, the group really hasn't been on a ton of runs and therefore don't have a bunch of gear to speak of besides chargen and stuff they have picked up.

But, there is a ton of stuff these guys like to spend karma on and with the karma rules, it really doesn't go as fast or make them as powerful as I would have expected...in the given time.

So, at this point, after 30 weeks of playing, these characters are about where you would be starting your group, using 500 BP. I think it would be fine as long as you keep the group as "professional runners", not up and comers or anything.

[ElFenrir]

Well, i got used to the 400 BPs, works well. Im sure 500 would work fine for a more experienced runner campaign.

I actually find, being an SR3 fan(fav of the 4, tho i enjoy 4), that 450 is a rather comfy amount to work with. It's not too terribly much more(youre basically allowed 25 more attribute points, which isnt too extensive), and 25 gives you some more Resources, Contacts, or if you divvy it up in Skills, a couple extra low end skills or one extra high end. Thinking about it like this, its not too extensive, but still allows for the more 'SR3' starting level runners(but not quite)...who some called overpowered, but i usually thought of it as runners that have been assumed to not be on their first one and have done a few. Another thing is with 450, I found Technomancers to be much more comfortable.


Well, lets break it down numerically. Taking maxes, a mundane character can have(for one instance), with 400:

200 on Attributes

Maxing out cash, can get 250,000(50BP)
Lets say dropping 15 into Contacts(15BP)

perhaps 10 on Edge(10 BP),
for 275 BPs, allowing 125 for Skills. (which go faster than you think sometimes).

This creates a competent, but not overpowering, character....with these resources, im guessing this might be in the lines of sammie or a Drone Hacker.

400 BPs can also make a well-powered, but not overly experienced, mage.

However, as said by many, technos do suffer a little under the 400 yoke.

500 BPs, to create the top sammie/drone hacker said above....

Add 50 Bps to their Attributes, fairly significant.

50 BPs more to spend on Skills or Contacts, also quite significant. If you allow more than 250,000 nuyen, then possibly considerably more Resources.

Yeah, these are some much more experienced runners...but not impossible to challenge. Youll just have to give it some thought.


As for the 320 BP method, its one of those things that i have to be in the mood for. Sometimes i like to play a more down end street gang-like campaign, and it works pretty well, but since most RPGs start you so low, i got a bit tired of it, so i typically more enjoy playing a bit more seasoned(ie, regular 400 BP to 450 BP.)

[Red]

It is much more difficult, and much more expensive to make a well balanced character than it is to make a more potent character. Anyone can make a potent one/two trick pony with 300 BP. However it a very experienced player to make a viable, well balanced character with only 300 BP.

GMs should be wary of restricting BP out of a kneejerk reflex reaction to the power that BPs grant munchkins, lest they starve other players of the ability to be anything but a minmaxer in order to survive.

[OneTrikPony]

It looks to me like the generation caps that are in effect control character generation as much as the build point totals.

You can have 500 bp but if you still keep the availability 12 cap and the 1/2 bp total cap on attributes you end up with more ballanced characters than specialists.

I'm playing my first SR4 character now and he is a 500 point character. He nearly died, took overflow damage in the first adventure. Part of that was that I'm out of practice and made some bloody stupid moves. But still it's not hard to kill a 500 pont character.

If I had to rebuild this character I would spend less on atributes (i used 200 pts) and but about 50 points worth of contacts.

[fistandantilus4....]

[OneTrikPony]

AH HA! I didn't know everyone had edge. I actualy like that idea more skull sweat for the GM but serious NPCs should have their own edge.

I think that's a good way to increase the power of a game and let the world keep up with advancing PC's too, no mater the BP startup.

[fistandantilus4....]

Oh, did I forget to mention that one house rule? :vegm:

Yeah, I couldn't find any logical reason that an NPC shouldn't have an attirbute that every PC has, which is also a big part of the reason we play w/ 500 BP. It does make you sweat it a bit.

But that gun fight you were in, I think the only time I used edge for the NPC's was :
1) when the FRT trooper tried to kick the grenade away and glitched
2) the yellowjacket shooting rockets at the hovercraft.

So it can still be plenty nasty without it.

[OneTrikPony]

MMMM Chunky Aztechnology Trooper Salsa is my favorite brand of salsa... YUMMY!

If anyone wants the recipe;

put 12 aztech guards in a citymaster,

Add one frag grenage

Let bake for 3-5 seconds.

Viola! Who brought the chips?

[edit] sorry for hijaking the thread

on topic; 500 bp is not too much if you have a GM who is a complete bastard. (this has not been another OTP personal attack, just a simple statment of Fact. You all saw the :vegm: smiley above.)

[fistandantilus4....]

[ElFenrir]

[ornot]

The question I'd be asking as a GM, is where that specialised character picked up his skills.

I tend to feel that demanding justification is a reasonable check on twinks, and at the very least you can make them feel stupid by pointing out the gaping holes and illogic in their character backgrounds.

Of course should a player come up with a reasonable reason for his character to be so insanely good with SMGs while barely having picked up a rifle, that's fine.

[Banaticus]

Some of you are acting like this is a new thing for Shadowrun -- this is why BeCKS was invented back in the year 2000. True, it hasn't been modified for 4th edition yet (the latest version, linked from the bottom of this post is v2 from the year 2004), but this is Dumpshock so I assume it will be updated soon. Perhaps we could start a thread to discuss it.

[ElFenrir]

Oh, i personally loved BeCKS. I showed it to some gamer friends and they agreed as well, when converting my SR3 Shaman to BeCKS he came out wonderfully well rounded, much better than before. I like the example they give. I recall there being a variant of SR4 BeCKS somewhere on the forum. With a little work you could probably heave over the old BeCKS to the new.

[OneTrikPony]

[Brahm]

[sunnyside]

I really don't see why 500 BP would be a problem. Especially since presumably you'd leave all the caps on skills and stuff in place.

I mean Shadowrun has been a great game for a long time. I remeber for a while there you could be a human with a million nuyen, stats of 6 6 6 4 4 4 a good batch of skills and have some positive/negative qualities to boot.

That'd be something like a 700 point character. And we still had a blast and they always wanted that Karma for something. (maybe not quite as desperatly though).


I'm guessing what you'll get are characters who can do more than just one thing and that would be good.


I'm more worried about the 4+ and the 6's both being in play. On the other hand that may help mitigate the extra points. With both of those rules the security guard you didn't notice in the corner has a respectable chance of turning one of your player's character sheets into hamster cage lining. That'll keep them on their toes.