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> Purchase/Sell Karma
Dak
post Oct 29 2003, 04:56 PM
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I tried to see if this had been covered somewhere but searching did not work for me. My apologies if I am rehashing something already answered elsewhere.

I am starting up a campaign in which I am interested in letting the players purchase Karma and possibly letting them sell Karma. There is information in the SR3 Companion about this, and if memory serves it suggests purchasing karma for 5,000 nuyen, and selling it for 250-1,000 nuyen per point. I am planning to run the campaign with pretty standard karma awards, so my question is as follows:

Those of you who allow purchase and/or selling of Karma, what rate do you allow it at? 250-1000 seems WAY low for selling, I was thinking in the range of purchase for 10,000 and selling for 5,000.

Those of you who do not allow one or both of these, any particularly compelling reasons as to why, that you would care to share?

My goal is to come up with a fair, balance and economical set of numbers for this.
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Sphynx
post Oct 29 2003, 05:01 PM
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Personally, out group can only purchase karma from each other. That way we get to determine the value of our own Karma. I've found that a point of karma sells, on average, for about 20,000 :nuyen: when left to the players to handle. And no, I don't care how out-of-character that may seem. :P

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Reaver
post Oct 29 2003, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE (Dak)
I tried to see if this had been covered somewhere but searching did not work for me. My apologies if I am rehashing something already answered elsewhere.

I am starting up a campaign in which I am interested in letting the players purchase Karma and possibly letting them sell Karma. There is information in the SR3 Companion about this, and if memory serves it suggests purchasing karma for 5,000 nuyen, and selling it for 250-1,000 nuyen per point. I am planning to run the campaign with pretty standard karma awards, so my question is as follows:

Those of you who allow purchase and/or selling of Karma, what rate do you allow it at? 250-1000 seems WAY low for selling, I was thinking in the range of purchase for 10,000 and selling for 5,000.

Those of you who do not allow one or both of these, any particularly compelling reasons as to why, that you would care to share?

My goal is to come up with a fair, balance and economical set of numbers for this.

Personally, I allow players to start buying karma after they pass at least 50 shadow total. I also have a restriction that they can't buy more karma than thier karma pool. Bought karma also goes into none of the karma totals (too keep them from boosting thier rep and karma pool). Also, the bigger they get, the more it costs to purchase karma. I can't remember the table I made, but if you want it I'll post it for ya. :)
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Req
post Oct 29 2003, 05:44 PM
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I'd love some info on it. My crew is in the 25-karma range and already the sammies are bitching about having nothing to spend their karma on (umm, buy athletics you fool) and the mages are bitching about not having enough.

I'd love to let them buy and sell.
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Reaver
post Oct 29 2003, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE (Req)
I'd love some info on it. My crew is in the 25-karma range and already the sammies are bitching about having nothing to spend their karma on (umm, buy athletics you fool) and the mages are bitching about not having enough.

I'd love to let them buy and sell.

LOL, that's always going to be that way. Sammies quickly stagnate and become karma banks while mages are always struggling for karma. :)

I'll post the table I made later today. :)
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ialdabaoth
post Oct 29 2003, 05:48 PM
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I use a polynomial formula in character creation and advancement, based (sort-of) off BeCKS.

You can spend K Karma to acquire (K x K) x 100 Nuyen at any time. So the more you save up, the more it's worth.

Likewise, you can purchase Karma once per session; K Karma costs (K x K) x 100 Nuyen. So the more Karma you want to buy, the more expensive it's going to be.

Keeps things fair both ways.
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Reaver
post Oct 29 2003, 06:04 PM
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QUOTE (ialdabaoth)
I use a polynomial formula in character creation and advancement, based (sort-of) off BeCKS.

You can spend K Karma to acquire (K x K) x 100 Nuyen at any time. So the more you save up, the more it's worth.

Likewise, you can purchase Karma once per session; K Karma costs (K x K) x 100 Nuyen. So the more Karma you want to buy, the more expensive it's going to be.

Keeps things fair both ways.

Let me guess, you're a math shaman? ;)
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nezumi
post Oct 29 2003, 06:14 PM
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I've heard two reasons why characters shouldn't buy karma:

1) It can be unbalancing. If a new character wins it big and 'buys' himself to be equivalent of a very old, experienced character, that's very bad. I believe the karma rules had a limit on how much karma you can buy each time (if not, they should).

2) It really doesn't make much sense. You can 'buy' experience? Well, maybe, if you spent the time and maybe put the money down for training or something. You can 'sell' experience? That's kinda wacky unless you have a free spirit out there. The first one you can justify, the second one you really can't (maybe you lose karma by mugging old ladies?).

If you are going to go into karma bartering, I'd say make sure there's a cap on it (limiting it to the amount of your karma pool sounds a bit harsh, I limit it to half of the amount of karma you made on the last run.) Also, I'd tend to make the costs unequal, to discourage players from doing it too much (buy high, sell low). Set the price for buying karma at 20k, sell it at 5k. Sphynx's idea doesn't make much sense from a roleplaying viewpoint, but in regards to making sure karma keeps its value, I think it's great. I might just try that next time.
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phelious fogg
post Oct 29 2003, 06:17 PM
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No, I am a math shaman.. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA All will bow before my greatness..... MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
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phelious fogg
post Oct 29 2003, 06:23 PM
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Oh for a real post...

I consider buying Karma to be training and such in your spare time to get better, training costs money. So I say, you want 2 Karma towards your Athletics skill, cool, thats 20k nuyen, and you have to spend the next week working out at the gym, doing gymnastics and climbing excercises.. At the end of that period, he gets his 2 karma to spend. Or maybe one does a run in his off hours for a charity group, spends 20k on gear or bribes that gets used up and gets his 2 karma that way. Runners dont always have to be running together, so give them a run in thier downtime if nessassary

Similarly, selling karma is just like burning it in my mind.. You do it to get some devine favor... You just managed to buy this weeks winning lotto ticket, or perhaps you manage to negotiate better against this weeks Mr. Johnson. Perhaps they were even asked to do a favor for a friend and got great pay from it. Generally giving them the bonus a week or so after they pay the price for it.
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GunnerJ
post Oct 29 2003, 06:46 PM
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It's 2000 nuyen to buy one karma and you can sell karma for (1D6 * 250) nuyen for each point IMG.
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ialdabaoth
post Oct 29 2003, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE
Let me guess, you're a math shaman?  ;)


Nah, computer programmer. ;)

Leads to a lot of interesting, complicated-seeming house rules that wind up very simple in execution.
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Req
post Oct 29 2003, 07:10 PM
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QUOTE (ialdabaoth)
QUOTE
Let me guess, you're a math shaman?  ;)


Nah, computer programmer. ;)

Leads to a lot of interesting, complicated-seeming house rules that wind up very simple in execution.

You're lucky - we biologists come up with house rules that are totally incomprehensible to anyone, even ourselves. And they're not any easier in execution. :)
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ialdabaoth
post Oct 29 2003, 08:49 PM
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Heh. On the other hand, biology provides wonderful ideas for new bioware.
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Req
post Oct 29 2003, 08:54 PM
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You're telling me. Bring on the viral weapons!
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Fortune
post Nov 3 2003, 07:18 AM
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QUOTE (Reaver)
QUOTE (Req @ Oct 29 2003, 05:44 PM)
...25-karma range and already the sammies are bitching about having nothing to spend their karma on...

LOL, that's always going to be that way. Sammies quickly stagnate and become karma banks...

This has always baffled me when I run into it with some players. My Gun Bunnies (and those of most of my players) never have enough Karma to learn all the skills they want to sufficient levels.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 3 2003, 07:30 AM
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Indeed. All of my characters, no matter what they've been, have always been karma sinks. Mages and Otaku are just more so.

~J
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sidekick
post Nov 3 2003, 08:02 AM
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I always had this very interesting idea I wanted to try called the Big Pot of Reward. At the end of the run, the players would be awarded a cash sum and a pool of karma to dive amongst themselves. It's up to the players to see who gets what. It either has the potential to really bring the group together or really putting them at each other's throats.
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Dim Sum
post Nov 3 2003, 09:47 AM
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QUOTE (Req)
QUOTE (ialdabaoth @ Oct 29 2003, 11:03 AM)
QUOTE
Let me guess, you're a math shaman?  ;)


Nah, computer programmer. ;)

Leads to a lot of interesting, complicated-seeming house rules that wind up very simple in execution.

You're lucky - we biologists come up with house rules that are totally incomprehensible to anyone, even ourselves. And they're not any easier in execution. :)

Hoo-weee! You should thank your lucky stars. Our group consists of 3 lawyers or ex-lawyers out of 4 people! :D
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Nevermind
post Nov 3 2003, 10:47 AM
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QUOTE (GunnerJ)
It's  2000 nuyen to buy one karma and you can sell karma for (1D6 * 250) nuyen for each point IMG.

This means the same time a Decker purchases a new CMT Avatar, the mage purchases 125 Karma? :S

This would mean that the same time a Sam does some alpha or beta upgrades, the mage in the groupe doubles his karma. :eek:

A KiAd needs 100 karma to by a ReBo 3- Ki Power , 200k, if i crosscheck this with the ReBo 3 a Streetsam purchases, 500k/5Points Essence/Op costs, and if i bear in mind that MrKiAd Can rise & buy as he wishes i.o. Sam who has 6 Points of Essence & Max 9 Points of Bio stuff,...i don't think cash for karma is fair
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Crazy Elf
post Nov 3 2003, 11:18 AM
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Buying karma is one of the most retarded concepts in the Shadowrun world. Karma is a completely abstract concept, the idea of being able to quantify it seems a little strange. Now I know that it's written off in the book as buying lucky charms, or whatever, but still at the end of the day you're going to have players running around buying lucky charms in an entirely mathmatical manner.

It sort of ends up killing most of the roleplaying that the game presents.

Buying better training, as Phelious Fogg said, seems much more workable. Still, to be able to quantify that is a little strange. There's already rules for trainers reducing the amount of time required to increase a skill or attribute. I guess you could say that a character can reduce the karma cost also, but then you fall into the trap of the cost of a trainer. I know a lot of people charge a new house for training, yet don't give the same quality as someone who may do so for free. Hell, most of the acrobatics/gymnastics I learnt was at $12 for around two hours, which ended up being three hours, as opposed to $500 or so for something which went for about a year and taught diddly squat.

Karma isn't going to translate to book keeping. If it does, then you've probably stopped roleplaying, and you're now rollplaying.

Selling karma is silly. As an abstract concept you'd never know how much you have to spend in the first place. "I feel lucky, I'm going gambling," isn't a great excuse when the character only goes out and gambles when they're pumped full of karma. Characters will end up doing things out of character to get the cash, and things that just don't make much sense.

Karma's karma, money's money. Leave it at that.
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mfb
post Nov 3 2003, 11:42 AM
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that's certainly one opinion, but that doesn't change the fact that it works quite well in some games, without reducing anyone to "rollplaying".
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TinkerGnome
post Nov 3 2003, 01:50 PM
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Purcahsing karma is very necessary in games which use training times. The mage can burn through 100 karma in initiation and spell learning before the street sam breaks 15 learning skills and increasing attributes (at base times, the ratio is probably a little closer in practice).

At the same time, the samurai can burn through a million nuyen much, much faster than a mage (take a look at surgery costs alone).

If your game doesn't bother with training times, don't use the karma purchasing rules. Being able to buy karma is no more retarded than the concept that getting better at shooting a pistol requires you to be a good roleplayer. It's all arbitrary game mechanics, after all and serves to balance the game between the mundane and the awakened.

As for selling karma... Free Spirit + Wealth = IC way to do it easily.
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Nevermind
post Nov 4 2003, 08:30 AM
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QUOTE (TinkerGnome)
It's all arbitrary game mechanics, after all and serves to balance the game between the mundane and the awakened.

???? You think its balancing that the mage has more karma to spent than the sam????

Why? Each Point a mage spends is valuable, Spells are easy to learn and have good effects, so why does the mages need extra karma?

Mages tend to be more effective than mundanes in all non direct combat situations and also in combat sits you can boost a mage to be equal or better, why does the mage need an karma boost?
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Sphynx
post Nov 4 2003, 09:02 AM
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That's not what he said Nevermind. It balances the game between mundane and awakened in that the mundane have something nice to spend their karma on. Cash. Those cyber/bio enhancements take alot of nuyen. However, at 5k a slot, that's admittedly not a balancing factor at all, considering the costs. To balance, raise the value of karma, if mages have it FAR too easy, than sell/buy karma at 100,000 nuyen a piece. (that's hopefully an exageration) Then for every 5 karma a mage earns, a sammie gets 500,000 :P Personally, since I see mages maxxing out at about 200 karma, if sold for 25,000 a piece, a sammie could have saved up 5,000,000 plus whatever cash he earned on an individual scale. So, when a mage maxxes out, a sammie should be maxxed out with nice beta grades all around as well as all sorts of great gadgets to make him better.

The GM has a tool to balance now, so the sammies can advance just as nicely as the mages. It's not about the mage buying karma (at 20k a piece, I'd end up averaging an additional 1 karma every 4 sessions in our games), it's about giving the Sammie a chance to sell karma for much needed cash.

Sphynx
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