 New Ammo, Adding microwire to flechette |
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 Jan 6 2007, 11:09 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934  |
you have the needles 10-20 in a flechette round.
if the stabilizing fins trailed behind the needle by a monofilament wire when it hits it's target the wire will be inside the target and prevent healing or stabilizing every time the target moves new wounds are cut. what are the thoughts of the people here as to the rules, or application used for such ammo? |
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Jan 6 2007, 11:22 PM
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#2
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...interesting concept. I worked up a similar type of ammo that injected a variant of cutter nanites which continued to damage the target every time he or she took a breath. Of course you had to hit them with a chest shot for it to work. After several hours time the nanites would have shredded enough of the target's lungs so they would suffocate on their own blood similar to person suffering from advanced tuberculosis. Pretty ugly.
Magical healing would only stave off the inevitable and targeted nano surgery was the only way to defeat the cutters. Never brought the weapon that fired it into play. |
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Jan 6 2007, 11:50 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 78 |
I don't buy it. Laying a bit of monowire across your arm isn't going to make it fall through your arm and cut it off. To do that, you need to weight the thing and pull against the wire. A bit of monowire in your body will move with the skin, it won't be pushing and pulling against it, so it is unlikely to do much damage. |
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Jan 6 2007, 11:55 PM
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#4
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
People have been wounded before in combat in which shrapnel remained lodged in their body and over time (years or decades) some of the shrapnel have come out of the body in which they can be picked out of their skin. If the danger of the monofilament wire normally is that it is somewhat taut so that it can form a cutting edge. If the wire is just there without any anchoring points, I don't see how it would differ from very small shrapnel that for the most part is inert within the body.
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Jan 7 2007, 12:05 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
the anchoring points are the stabilizing fins and the head.
two points on each needle... 20 needles per hit... 6 hits... shrapnel from grenades land mines etc... are a bit smaller than the needles, solid, and compact. a twist of the body doesn't move them too much but a line maybe 4 inches long when the body twists would not move the rest of the way the muscles and tendons move. (in theory) the needles themselves are too big to simply leave in the body and the microwire makes surgery hard on both the surgeon and the patient. |
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Jan 7 2007, 02:06 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 178 Joined: 4-September 05 Member No.: 7,682 |
Don't forget the fun of tugging on monowire with conventional medical techniques.
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Jan 7 2007, 10:48 AM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 87 Joined: 16-December 06 From: Kabul, Afg. Member No.: 10,381 |
Brings to mind Chain Shot of the good 'ol days of ships o the line and Trafalgar. More recently (WWI) machine gun bullets were wired together. May not KEEP messing you up after you've been hit by it. But it WILL screw you up about twice as much as flechette alone would. Not to mention make a mess on the way out. Sounds like it would work, but who would manufacture it? Would a runner want a rep that would come with using this stuff? (guess it depends on the runner) :S
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Jan 7 2007, 11:58 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
it would be super expensive to make like Glaser rounds. it's not an everyday use ammo, more like "a message" you know what the rounds that were tied together were called? |
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Jan 7 2007, 03:32 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 510 Joined: 19-May 06 From: Southern CA Member No.: 8,574 |
Yeah, chain shot, just like it used to be called back in the days of cannons. It was pretty common for ship battles -- if you weren't specifically targeting the hull, a cannonball wouldn't really do any damage. It might burst through a sail, but it'd be moving fast enough that you'd just get a little hole and then the ball would be past the ship. If you used a bunch of chain stuffed in the barrel, because of centrifugal force, the chains would unwrap themselves in the air, so you'd have burning hot spinning pieces of chain flying through the air -- they'd cut right through ropes and sails and people in their path and could cut enough ropes that the masts would be off balance, which could pull them down and destroy the enemy ship. Chain shot fired right at deck level was also pretty common. With chain shot, since you were trying to cut ropes and stuff, suddenly you didn't have to just hit the bit of the hull sticking out of the waves or the top of the deck, you had the whole broad side of the ship to fire your broadside at (so, since it was more difficult to "miss", each shot was more effective).
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Jan 7 2007, 04:43 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 29-October 05 Member No.: 7,908 |
Who is to say in the abstract world of SR that flechettes don't already contain microwire? The fluff text on flechette ammo has never been rock solid. I don't really see how this qualifies as a new ammo.
As for healing complications, given that people have the technology to heal deadly wounds within a week I think it is fair to assume that problems like removing microwire shrapnel are no longer a significant medical problem. Hurrah for nanite based medicine. |
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Jan 7 2007, 08:25 PM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
How would that work? Like a duplex round, only with the two bullets connected? Wouldn't that completely fuck up the external ballistics? Otherwise, I'm sort of perversely with Red here. The small arms "Flechette" ammunition of SR has never been explained (it bears very little resemblance to real world flechette ammunition of any kind) and has never worked logically. M4jykal monowire is as good an excuse for their stats as any. Not that I can see the point in a bullet that maybe causes some damage to the person you hit some time well in the future instead of just causing him/her maximum damage right the fuck now. |
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Jan 8 2007, 01:04 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
Yes, it would mess up ballistics. There have been attempts with wired buckshot for shotguns, but the wire reduces range quite a bit. Duplex machinegun rounds weren't wired together. Instead, they were designed to drift apart slightly as they went downrange, increasing the odds of a hit. Duplex rounds were abandonned because of reliability issues and the individual round were lighter than a single standard round (though they weighed a bit more added together) which reduced the effective range of the weapon. Wiring wouldn't really work in rifled ammunition. The spinning of the bullets would cause the wire to twist and knot up. That would jerk the bullets around in flight and throw accuracy out the window. On the other hand, if you were looking at very short range engagements, there is a kind of shotgun round available today. It isn't like the one described above, exactly, as it only has two large shot. These are connected by a wire and is supposed to act like the old chain shot. If one ball hits, the other is supposed to wrap around the hit too. I'm not sure that would really work though, and the loss of range due to the wire might not be worth it either. It would probably be best just to have a third large piece of shot in there and aim well. In the real world, flechette hasn't worked that well in shotgun rounds. They have slightly less range than shot and don't seem to have the terminal effect of shot. Being long and pointy, they tend to poke into a target, effecting it less than a larger area ball of the same weight. It has to do with surface area and energy transfer. It may penetrate armor better than shot though, but I haven't read anything about that. I am curious though. Why make a round that would kill slowly or be hard to clean up when you could make one that would kill faster and take a a threat more quickly? |
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Jan 8 2007, 03:05 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 178 Joined: 4-September 05 Member No.: 7,682 |
A dead man reduces a fighting force by one.
A wounded man reduces the oppositions fighting strength by 2-3; the guy you shot and the medic or a guy or two to haul away the wounded man. Too bad that theory falls flat when facing a foe that let's their wounded die without remorse. |
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Jan 8 2007, 03:15 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
That's true in a military situation, but it wouldn't apply as much to a Shadowrun. Rather than have to haul the wounded away, a wounded security man would only have to lie there and wait for the ambulance. |
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Jan 8 2007, 03:41 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
Assuming you are fighting a security guard or someone that CAN wait. does your shadowrunning group leave your wounded teamates behind to "wait" for an ambulance? |
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Jan 8 2007, 03:49 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
Good point. No, they don't. They have had to leave badly injured runners with the street doc while they carried on though. |
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Jan 8 2007, 03:59 AM
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#17
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
While logically sound, that theory relies on the assumption that the enemy won't kill their own wounded. This assumption is not always correct. |
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Jan 8 2007, 04:32 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
Wounded allies make great cover. |
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Jan 8 2007, 05:58 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 510 Joined: 19-May 06 From: Southern CA Member No.: 8,574 |
All you have to do is make it off the corporate extraterritoriality ground. At that point, Doc Wagon will come pick you up. True, you might be arrested afterward, but at least you'll be alive. Then your team can go for a pro bono extraction procedure (or, maybe not pro bono, depending on how much you have stashed away).
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Jan 8 2007, 06:49 AM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Exactly.
Right, plus there's the problem of attempting to correct the flight path of a statically stable bullet by pulling at one end of it. |
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Jan 8 2007, 07:08 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 510 Joined: 19-May 06 From: Southern CA Member No.: 8,574 |
That's why you don't use a machine gun, you use a mortar. When the enemy trench is just on the other side of that meadow, you don't really care that you won't have as great of a range as normal, you just want to shoot stuff up in the air down into the trench.
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Jan 8 2007, 07:19 AM
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#22
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Wouldn't it be easier to just use explosive mortar shells?
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Jan 8 2007, 07:40 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
Yeah and I bet it be cheeper to. |
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Jan 8 2007, 12:44 PM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
$940 per 120mm HE, $605 per 81mm HE and $476 per 60mm HE, all with multi-option fuzes, when ordered in amounts with 4 zeroes. I suppose a few blocks of iron with wire inbetween would be cheaper per cartridge. On the other hand, that wouldn't kill everyone within 20 meters in the open and be effective against people in trenches or foxholes over several meters.
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Jan 9 2007, 06:28 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 2-January 07 From: Los Angeles, CA Member No.: 10,510 |
"Huh? Did I hear someone say cheaper?" -befuddled mid-level manager |
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