A few question about the Ares Redline, nothing rules wise just some RPing Options

[Frag-o Delux]

I want one of my characters to acquire an Ares Redline, I know it might be munchie in your game but our games are different.

Any way I was thinking (dangerous) now I don't know a lot about lasers and the physics behind them. How much noise and light do you think the Redline would make. The character I am playing is a cat burglar style guy and a beginning face. He has a intense love with high tech junk, and keeping his stealth high.

My point being is the laser really isn't visible on the human eye level, it may show up on the IR or UV not sure which, but how long will it be there. The laser isn't going to be on for all that length of time, so how perceptable will the beam be. I know it is dangerous trying to apply real world physics to SR but I like to be real in our games. Also, how much noise will it make? Will it cook the air and make a sizzle noise, and how much sizzle will it make when it hits the target? Just curious as to how stealthy this laser will be. As far as my knowledge about lasers go, I don't think it will be very perceptable in either areas. First of all the light in the laser isn't perceptable unless a lot of particles are in the area, and the only noise I think would come out of it would be the click of the trigger and maybe the sizzle of human flesh as the target hits the ground. But that is just me I want it to be ultra stealthy, when in reality it might be really noticable. I just don't think the Redline or MP III and Firelance for that much would be very perceptable, it is not like this is a G.I. Joe cartoon, I mean my laser isn't going to be red while the Lone Star will be shooting blue lasers.

[Shadow]

I think the redline lasers are tagged red for safety. In other words they purposely make them visible. As for noise, there would be no need for a trigger, just a pressure plate to fire it. There would be the discharge of the capacitor, the sizzle.

Technically, your target would be hit before you ever saw the beam of light. It would go like this.

Pull the trigger
Target is hit
Beam of light shoots out.

It has to do with the fact that a laser moves at the speed of light. And your brain does not.

[nezumi]

First point, why is a cat burglar running around with a laser?? It seems totally unnecessary. No self respecting cat burglar packs 15lbs of heat (because that means he obviously isn't a very good cat burglar).

That said... from what I understand, lasers shoot visible light. Unless it's going through something that'll defract the light (fog or lots of dust) no one would see it unless he or she were looking straight into the beam (in which case, the person wouldn't see it for want of an eyeball).

Would it show up on UV or IR? I don't believe so. UV and IR are still both electromagnetic radiation, and the point of the laser is all of the radiation is going in one direction, not bouncing around (plus, the laser blocks all but a certain range of wavelengths from leaving the 'muzzle'). Would you see the heat left by the trail? Maybe, but not for very long at all, and it would be so small that unless you were looking for it, you probably wouldn't notice.

Would it make noise? In fog I guess it would make noise, as water particles are suddenly accelerated. I don't believe that normal air would, especially with a laser pistol of low power. I would assume that the firing mechanism would make some sort of noise, but it's really not necessary that it does. That's really up to GM's call. Personally, i'd set it to about the same amount of noise as a suppressed pistol.

[Req]

Lasers don't necessarily lase in the visible light range. IR lasers, x-ray, even microwave radiation can be used. Most of the cutting/burning lasers around now are IR. In fact any electromagnetic radiation can be used if you can find an appropriate material to lase at that frequency.

Also it's not that the laser "blocks" certain wavelengths from leaving the "muzzle," but that the laser only generates a very specific wavelength (or two) of energy and projects it as a coherent beam. The ion laser in the high-speed cell sorter I operate projects only 488nm (visible blue) and UV, with the lion's share of the energy coming out as visible, but that's just because of the composition of the gas in the plasma tube. A different gas (or solid-state material or whatever) would produce a different wavelength.

Visible or not, you wouldn't see a "beam" except if there was a lot of crap in the air, dust or smoke or fog or whatever. I'd be surprised if there was any noise at all other than the sizzling/burning/whatever that happened to the target. Even if you did I presume the Redline is supposed to be a pulse laser, triggering a beam for a tiny fraction of a second, so it might not be the sort of thing you'd notice anyway.

[TheOneRonin]

Here's some info I've gathered on laster weapons out on the web. YMMV.

While being a very effective weapon under optimal conditions, the laser drops in effectiveness under adverse conditions. Optimal conditions for a laser are conditions not found within an atmosphere. Environmental factors including particles in the air, humidity, and other common occurrences, when combined, render the laser as a weapon best suited for use in outer space. Particulate matter in the air tends to scatter the beam, reducing the amount of energy that arrives at the target location; this lowers the amount of damage done to the target (no duh). Humidity in the air poses another problem for the use of lasers in an atmosphere. At the front shock-cone (the point where the laser is moving through the air), the temperature is high enough that it can no longer hold humidity and the rapid cooling of the air after the beam has passed through, result in an interesting phenomenon. This causes the humidity in the wake of the laser to condense into a fine line of mist in the shape of the beam in the air for approximately 2-6 seconds afterwards. This is known as a DEW (Directed Energy Weapon) Line, and provides everyone in the area with a straight line between the target and the firing unit.

And...

Energy Weapons: In general, with any weapon powerful enough to vaporize armor and flesh, you end up vaporizing a path through the air as well. There will almost always be a loud crackling sound, and in many cases a localized sonic concussion as the air collapses on the vacuum created by the energy beam/path. Furthermore, the heat trail left behind would be visible to sensitive thermo-imaging optics, possibly giving away the source of the beam.

Lasers: Even a 50 watt laser, like the type used in large scale light shows, starts to vaporize particle in the air if the beam is left stationary for more than a second. Real life weapon grade lasers are actually quite loud. Since most are designed for short duration/pulse, there is a loud "crack" every time weapon is fired as the air is vaporized in a path to the target.


This is not the end-all of info on Laser weapons. However, it should give you some points of reference when dealing with them in SR. If you want more info, use the web, that's what it's there for.

I use the info above in my SR games because Fanpro has remained very quiet on how it's laser weapons work/function.

[TheOneRonin]

Oh, and if your catburglar wants to be stealthy, a taser is a MUCH better option. IIRC, you don't even need a permit to carry one of those around. That's even better than a suppressed Ares Predator.

[durthang]

While the Redline might not make alot of noise, don't you think your target screaming would attract some attention?

I'd suggest a Narcojet pistol if you want to be stealthy. I believe that they are considered silenced. Better yet, most GMs will let you get away with the target doing little more than groan when they go down, just like the movies.

Another option is tranq patches.

[Ed_209a]

Practical laser weapons require extremely high energy levels, with extremely low durations. The beam duration will probably only be a few milliseconds.

That intensity will probably be enough to ionize the air it passes through, giving it a dim glow. It wouldn't be very visible in daylight, but would be visible at night.

[nezumi]

Question for Ronin... which site did you get that off of? I don't claim to be an expert in lasers, however the idea of vaporizing vapor (turning gas to gas) seems rather redundant and repetitive, and makes me question the entire article.

[Frag-o Delux]

First thanks for your replys, But second I never said he was going to carry the weapon with him on jobs, he has a narcoject pistol for that, or just running. It is a mind set that people live in, he has to sell his spoils and do other dangerous things in the field, the SR world is not very nice. His idea is it is a really cool weapon and it should be stealthy, like a 9mm with a silencer but more cooler.

And all the web sites I found about lasers talk about their tech specs, most people could give a rats ass weither it makes noise when it is fired.

I don't get why a vapor trial would hang around for 2 to 6 minutes though. Wouldn't the wind move it away, unless it is like what jets leave behind, but that would lead to no one wanting to use lasers on the first place, that is why they made smokeless powder for guns, so you can see what you need to for targeting. I have never personally seen a laser fired at White Sands or Livermore labs, but I have seen some footage, and nothing like a vapor trail was left, I heard some noise but how much was filtered I don't know. A heat trial would be the same way, 480 nm wide for a billionth of a second will heat the air but will it heat the air enough for it to be noticed minutes later? or long enough for a guy using thermo to see it righ away and start to think? Not to mention the laser has a better chance of killing a guy at close range any way, it uses half impact at 12M, which is pretty close to killing any body you meet in causual business.

As for the target screaming, hell lets get rid of silencers also. Stealthy means you do not want to draw a lot of attention, if you shot someone they die not much noise. Same goes for silencers, if tap a guy in the head he dies no scream, don't use a silencer tap a guy in the hea he dies no scream but now you have a pistol report wafting through the air. That is what a laser would do. If you shot a guy with a narco ject and he doesn't pass out don't you with him shooting at you with his gun and scraming will dra a lot of attention? or as you sneak up to stick a patch on his bare flesh, he turns and shots you now you are screaming and he is shooting you agian will draw a lot of attention?

[Backgammon]

Partially about lasers, and a really cool pistol that fires around corners, too

[Frag-o Delux]

Nice story but how does this relate to the topic? Is there a clip that shows a vapor trial or how loud it is?

[Backgammon]

No, but this is a lot smarter and offers more science babbling. (talking in links is fun)

[Frag-o Delux]

That is a lot of reading I'll get to it later. In fact I may have read it already I have read a lot of the stuff off of that site.

[Backgammon]

More, even better

excerpt: "Such a laser will sound and, to some extent, look like a jet engine"

[Frag-o Delux]

I just remembered the other reasons I want it. One it has no shell casings, no evidence to pick up. Two no bullet, not evidence for the medical exaiminer to find, and thirdly, no residue on your hands or clothes, so the police can't tell if you fired a laser lately. The third reason may only be good for a while until the police get a lot of laser muders and develope a test for it. But the possible stealth aspect and the lack of evidence it leaves behind are big sellers, the ability to deal death well is another big seller, but it being a security weapon with all the penalties attached and 75,000 :nuyen: multiplyed by the SI which is 3 I think price tag is not good

[Req]

[Frag-o Delux]

How do all these relate to the Red Line? I mean all these are huge freakin' weapon systems, how do I relate this to a pistol? A laser the size of a bus, that sounds like a jet, is equal to a laser the size of a pistol sounds like a bee flying? Not to cut anyone down but I have seen a lot of people talk out of their ass, does anyone have laser experience here, I know some of you here do you have admitted it before. :D What is the duration of the sound? Does it sound like a jet for the millionth of a second it is fired or does it linger and sound like a jet flying away from you? With all these side effects that you guys have proposed why would anyone develope a man portable laser or hand held laser weapon? The size of the weapon and energy it consumes alone is enough of a deterent, but if it has so much noise, vapor trial and othe things you guys have described why do it? The range aspect is nice if you are in space but on earth the range is dropping fast because of the environment, so that can't be a real addition. The armor piercing ability? With smart weapons that are getting even smarter why keep developing lasers?

[Frag-o Delux]

[nezumi]

Firstly, I'd go with what Reg said waaay back when. It looks like he has practical experience on the scale you're talking about.

Secondly, in regards of legality, no, the Star would not be able to pin laser attacks on you as long as they don't know you have a laser weapon. That said, lasers are few and far between, and carefully watched. They will have a tally of all of the laser attacks in the area and they probably can't tell very much between them (no ballistics testing to speak of). If they EVER connect you with a laser (even if its as vague as getting a picture of you doing something suspicious in a bank and someone that night is shot with a laser there), they will connect you with that cime (because it sucks to be in the shadows) and then with every laser attack that's happened in the past year. If you start flashing it around only for its intimidation factor, they'll get on you even faster.

[Frag-o Delux]

I agree nezumi, I don't plan on using it really that much, it is still just I have a laser thing. Doesn't one of your characters have a minigun in the closet just so you can say a have a minigun? Or is it just me?

[Phasma Felis]

[BitBasher]

The only problem is of you have a "laser thing" and not your character. your character should have "a thing for lasers". If it fiits the character its all good, if you want one because you think its cool, then I question the motives. :D

[Frag-o Delux]

[Frag-o Delux]