 SR3 or SR4 which one has more |
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 Jan 10 2007, 04:19 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 3-January 07 Member No.: 10,527  |
I have looked around several sites and have heard alot about the differences between the old and new versions, but I am wondering which one is better for the noob?
I know a bit about roleplaying games but I have never gamed in SR. I played the Genesis game as a kid and loved it. I have read a few novels (Fade to Black, Shadowplay and Born to Run) so that make me more familiar with the world as it is in the 50s and 60s but i heard the SR4 was easier to pick up and learn. What do you think? What are the pros and cons of each? Any good novel recommendations? When are they coming out with SR4 novels anyway? Help a Noob out. |
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Jan 10 2007, 04:31 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
I love SR3 and prefer it. Having said that, I've read SR4 and it is (sadly) easier than SR3 to just pick up and learn to play.
SR4 is a lot like the World of Darkness (if you've ever played that), with the stat + ability roll. It also has skill caps like WoD also. |
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Jan 10 2007, 04:34 PM
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#3
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
SR3 has books with advanced rules for all the major subsystems of the game. As of this moment, SR4 only has a book with advanced rules for magic; other advanced rules sets are still being written.
SR4 is getting active support from the publisher in the form of adventure modules (both the published kind and the freely downloadable online variety), answers to questions (either by direct email response or via their FAQ page), and updated errata sheets. FAQs and errata for SR3 will continue to be available for download from the publisher's website, but these will no longer be updated. Any questions about SR3 still unanswered, and any errors that have not yet been corrected by errata will not be addressed. So, it boils down to: Do you go with the system that's complete but no longer supported, or do you go with the system that's still being built, but is also getting active support? |
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Jan 10 2007, 04:34 PM
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#4
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
SR4 is too generic for my taste. You make a character and it feels like any other character in any other game. In SR3 the characters feel so much more diverse and 3-dimensional that it's not comparable. So, for a noob I guess I'd start with SR4, and advance to SR3 later when you're ready for a more complex game.
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Jan 10 2007, 04:39 PM
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#5
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
WizKids has not announced further plans for publishing Shadowrun novels; FanPro, the publisher of the RPG, does not have the rights to publish them.
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Jan 10 2007, 04:45 PM
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#6
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
In English. They are publishing German novels though. |
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Jan 10 2007, 05:08 PM
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#7
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I know, Aber mein Deutsch is ser slecht nun. ...I also am still smarting from the changeover. I had an adventure arc & source material ready to submit with a novel to follow afterwards when they announced SR4 was coming out. I've played SR4, It's okay. The decking rules are much better. The skill caps are still annoying though. I like a character to have the chance to be the "best of the best" not "Just as good as the other guy" I also still have some issues with certain skills like Perception being a physical instead of a mental skill and Artisan (Performance) being based on Intuition instead of Charisma. Also magic is a lot nastier against mundanes since the variable TN is gone. |
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Jan 10 2007, 08:42 PM
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#8
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
To sum it up briefly:
SR4 is easier to play and requires less background understanding to be up to date with (if you're worried about being in a game where all or some of the players know far more than you). SR3 has more complexity, more background, and has been praised as being a more flexible (but math intensive) system than SR4. If you are brand new out of the starting gate, I'd recommend SR4. You can get the background information for the system without struggling so much with the mechanics. Then, when you've established yourself, you can decide if you'd like to try the SR3 mechanics or not. |
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Jan 10 2007, 11:09 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 548 Joined: 21-December 06 Member No.: 10,416 |
I had a novel planned out too, but that was when FASA closed up shop and things were in limbo for a while. I didn't like the skill caps either, which it why I don't use them. They weren't a problem in previous editions, and I don't see why they would be now. Some have said that the new system encourages rounded growth. Maybe, but specialists are better at their job than generalists. I never had a problem with a character maxing out gun skills to the exclusion of others, for example. History is full of weapon masters that weren't good at much of anything else. If that's the way they want to be, fine, but they aren't allowed to cry when they find themselves stuck and their big skills can't help them. As for the skills, just change their linked attribute. The previous generations of SR always stated they didn't mind houseruling and small changes in the rules. SR4 Shouldn't be any different. |
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Jan 10 2007, 11:22 PM
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#10
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
We'll see what you say when the FanPro RPG police gets you! :grinbig: |
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Jan 11 2007, 01:27 AM
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#11
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I just got to get my GM to do the same... |
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Jan 11 2007, 02:56 PM
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#12
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
Admitedly though, and Im not a major propoent of sr4, its still gaining content. The rigger... oh wait there arnt riggers anymore, crap. The decker... erh I mean Hacker book, the cyberware book, the guns and toys books, are all still in devolpment, or will be at some point. So Yes, sr3 HAS a huge amout of things, sr4 is still growing. |
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Jan 11 2007, 05:15 PM
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#13
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Maybe, but characters were better in SR3 than SR4 with just the corebook, Street Magic vs Magic in the Shadows was a waste of reading time in my opinion. I can't see how the Hacker Book could be better than the Rigger3+Matrix combo. The only good thing for me in SR4 was a more realistic network, something we're working on incorporating into an SR3 system. Once we get all the kinks Ironed out I may have to 'produce' a Hacker Book for SR3 so we can all be Wireless. :P
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Jan 15 2007, 01:30 AM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 3-January 07 Member No.: 10,527 |
Thanks for all the responses. I think we are going to go with SR4 because fo the simplicity. I also hear that it is really hard to bring your decker along on runs in the old system.
Anyother thoughts would be appreciated! |
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Jan 15 2007, 02:13 AM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Lindt, there aren't riggers anymore? I'm playing one, is it all a hallucination?
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Jan 15 2007, 02:25 AM
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#16
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,629 Joined: 14-December 06 Member No.: 10,361 |
Distinction between an awesome driver and the riggers who used to also do tons of remote electronic warfare.
Deckard: Fair enough going with SR4, I think you're missing out on some flavour and a damn fine game, but the SR4 rules are easier. |
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Jan 15 2007, 06:11 AM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 3-January 07 Member No.: 10,527 |
Honestly I think I would rather try SR3 I am just not sure how much my Players are going to be willing to put into it. If SR3 is as math intensive as i am hearing they will head for the hills.
What is everyones beef with AR? I have read alot of negative stuff about it. I have no history with the game (just the fiction) so I was wondering what is up? Another question: Out of the box which book has the most history/flavor in it, the SR3 or SR4 book? |
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Jan 15 2007, 06:32 AM
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#18
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
SR3 has the most flavor, quite a hit of which was integrated into the rules. When the rules were streamlined for SR4 a great deal of this flavor was excised.
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Jan 15 2007, 06:34 AM
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#19
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
SR3 isn't math intensive at all—nothing more complex than exponents and square roots. Calculating probabilities involves a bit more math, but is very easily approximated (expected number of successes requires almost no thinking to compute).
~J |
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Jan 15 2007, 08:09 AM
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#20
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Good choice for simplicity. However, SR3 isn't math intensive unless you choose it to be as a player. (Ie: min-maxxing your 6 points of essence out to get the maximum usage) :P
Augmented Reality? I got no beef with it, it's the only thing I actually like about SR4 vs SR3 SR3 'out of the box book' has the better flavor/history by far. |
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Jan 15 2007, 09:05 AM
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#21
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
A large part of the problem people have with AR is at least partially to do with the shift in paradigm of computer use, and particularly immersion, from previous editions of SR (another part of it is the in-game timeframe in which this was achieved). In all previous editions the emphasis was on "traditional cyberpunk" full virtual reality immersion and a parallel digital world. In SR4 this has shifted to a new paradigm where while VR immersion remains, but the primary means of using the Matrix is through AR. Many people believe this detracts from the danger and thrill that was inherent to running the Matrix old-style. Unfortunately the old system fostered a situation where many characters in the 2050's barely used the omnipresent computing of the Matrix and didn't even have a basic-level computer skill. IMHO, I think AR simply makes computer use ubiquitous and easily incorporated in play. Your mileage may vary.
I'm going to disagree with those that have posted before. I've always found SR3 "out-of-the-box" (meaning the basic core book) to be incredibly lacking in useful setting flavor. Not the tone and style, that's very much there, but the nitty gritty details that make the setting come alive. It does have a nice history section, arguably better than SR4's (though that has the handicap of compressing a further 10 years of history into the same space), but in terms of setting flavor it pretty much compresses everything into about six pages outlining the Seattle sprawl and surroundings in very broad terms. In my experience it's always been easier to convey the setting to a newbie by using cinema and book references than having him/her read the SR3 core book. Comparatively, the history chapter aside, SR4 has an entire flavor chapter dedicated to Life in the Seventies which offers many of the everyday basics that SR3 lacked (unless you also bought the Sprawl Survival Guide) at the cost of those pages on Seattle. I should note that I've never seen the uniqueness of the various subsystems of mechanics (from the distinction between shamans and hermetics to the distinct subsystems for decking and rigging) as a source of flavor, but I believe a number of people do. Personally, I've found that roleplaying is better than mechanically enforced "flavor" of this type. Note - my opinions may be considered biased since I am currently a developer for SR4. |
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Jan 15 2007, 12:45 PM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Rules wise, SR4 is much much better than SR3. And the Core book is very complete.
If you play SR3, you have to live with abominations like the MIJI rules, Rigging rules and other stuff, that is just not usable at all. |
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Jan 15 2007, 01:09 PM
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#23
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Serbitar for the lose.
~J, who uses the rigging rules at least once a week with little pain (MIJI is unusable, but that's because encryption makes it totally useless, not because the rules themselves are particularly complex) |
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Jan 15 2007, 01:11 PM
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#24
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
As RPGs go, that is a little math intensive. Compare to the Other Game or WoD and you'll see SR3 expects its players to be at least intelligent enough to count to twenty without taking off their shoes (something clearly not the case in the Other Game, and I've seen players that prove it). Don't think I'm complaining, I love it personally. Heck, you saw my 'running a clinic' rules. But for the average American, it may be beyond what he's comfortable with, unfortunately. |
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Jan 15 2007, 01:33 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 865 Joined: 31-December 03 From: Shadows of Britain Member No.: 5,944 |
(More in response to Synners closing comments)
I think that good Roleplaying and the mechnical style put together made the Magic special in SR3. Given that as the mechanics were they tended to reward people who put the thought into their characters and played accordingly. It's nice to see the system on some level reward the player for putting that effort in. (more generally) I`m still a huge SR3. I`ve never played SR4 and since i`m the sole SR GM in my area I doubt i ever shall anytime in the near future. I have read through a copy of the book(briefly) and seen the system. It is very tight and alot easier under basic scrutiny than SR3 it is very true and congrats to the developers on achieving that. So for those wishing simplicity SR4 is the way to go. The thing that brought me to SR3 however was indeed both the Setting and Style of the game (it was new compared to everything else we were currently playing) and the mechanical medley that somehow inspire by the fact that everything differant was handled differant. Both have their virtues, both their flaws. But for me at least it is SR3 that will always feel Unqiue in my RPG collection. |
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