 SR3 or SR4 which one has more |
  |
 Jan 16 2007, 09:31 AM
Post
#51
|
|||
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 1-December 06 Member No.: 10,116  |
Funny. I havent noticed any real difference for that between SR3 and SR4. Usually some one botched. :dead: And I really prefer the 'hits' system over the TN on a D6 thing any day. But maybe thats because I used to play Heavy Gear long before I played Shadowrun. And HG uses a 'hits' system as well. Get more hits than the other guy you 'win' the test. The more hits over the better you do, the more damage you do, etc. Works the same way with SR4 SR3 I'd often wind up with these really crazy TNs of like.. 14, 24 etc. And I wouldnt call SR3 any less dice intensive than SR4. You still roll crazy ammounts of dice in SR3. I've seen plenty of folk with 12 dice in a skill then you have the oodles of KP an old char develops. So they take a really hard test (Like that 24) and just roll tons of dice till their happy. Also I found SR3 to bog down a great deal in some areas. SR4 well.. havent played it enough yet to be honest. But so far it seems like a quick n' dirty resolution is quite easy to pull off if things start bogging down due to dice rolls. SR3's complexity over SR4s more simplistic setup IS nice at times, dont get me wrong. I loved the whole coding language difference thing for example for deckers. Used to play one and I really like that aspect of it, long with some of the other 'advanced rules'. But when your running a game like that on actual pen and paper it really really really bogs down. Coded up properly in a MUSH shell it goes pretty damn fast. And in that sort of setup neither is really better than the other I thik, save that SR3 has more options. But thats still mostly because SR4 doesnt really have any companion books to speak of yet. I think really some of the adjustment for stuff like tactical planning in an SR4 game jsut really requires abity of adjustment on the part of the old SR3 crowd. Cause that hit system is in a way considerably different than the TN style of play. Keep in mind 1 hit on a perception test is still effectivelyt eh same result as one 'hit' on an SR3 perception test. You only 'sort of' notice something peripherally basically unless it's something really obvious. Like that lisence plate being a morphing plate. 1 hit: Huh.. that plate looks a little funny. Oh well 2 hits: Hrmm.. tehre's something really odd about that. Maybe I should check it out 3 hits+: By jove! Thats a morphing plate! All you really go from is having TN8 and needing 3 8s+ to 'spot' it immediately as a morphing plate to requiring 3+ hits in the SR4 system. It's.. arguably easier to do infact since you go from TN8 to TN5 basically. So to up the complexity, make an extra hit or two required in SR4. You'll wind up with about the same difficulty level. Also under SR4 it becomes alot more important to apply modifiers to things like percieving folk who are sneaking. Under SR3 it's realy just an open test opposed roll. Sure the twinkinum suits arnt quite as powerful anymore but I dont think thats actuallyt oo unrealistic. So assuming the use of the ever cheap twinkinum, which is only even cheaper in SR4 than SR3 (NOt that R12 twink suits are realy that expensive comparably anyway) you kinda wind up with the following under SR4: Bob The guard: Raiting Average/Professional Attributes: 3 Skills: 4 Perception Dice: 7 Sneaky McSneaksalot: Typical player focused on stealth Attribute 4 or 5 Skill: 4 (Group skill assumably. best bang for the buck) Sneaky dice!: 8-9 So now lets rack up them there modifiers: Night time, full moon out: -2 Partial Light Ruth suit: -4 to visual perception test Bob is bored and wants to go home. He's sorta sleepy too: -2 to being 'distracted'. Bob now has: -1 dice to notice the Sneaky McSneaksalot. Lets give bob Some night vision goggles to compensate. Afteral Their cheap! Bob now has: 1 die vs Sneaky McSneaksalot Hrmm.. wow that really sucks! Lets give him some other gear! Perception Enhancers for the win! Bob now has R3 Vision mods Bob now has: 4 die vs Sneaky McSneaks alot Bob wake the frag up! Bob now has: 6 die vs Sneaky McSneaksalot. Sneaky McSneaksalot still has 2-3 dice more than Bob. AHh but then you could arguably start applying those fun little distance modifiers! Object/Sound is not in immediate vacinity: -2 dice Bob now is back down to 4 dice. There's a party going on across the street: Inferfering sight/ordor/sound: -2 (Or if you dont like that he's back to being distracted) Bob now has 2 dice. OH noes! fog rolls in! But Bob still has that nifty NV: -1 Bob now has 1 die. Oh dear.. fog is getting pretty thick: NV: -2 Bob now has 0 dice. Meanwhile Sneaky McSneaksalot hasnt had his dice modified at all. And then we still havent touched uppon thresholds. Bob has at least a threshold of 2 to notice. Since Sneaky McSneaksalot isnt being 'obvious' or 'loud'. Unless Sneaks really screws up royally. Infact Bobs threashold could infact be 3. Afterall it takes a threshold of 3 to notice whispering. Of course then he isnt quite so penalized if your doing the test based uppon all senses (Such as hearing). But really if you wnat to get complex about it. What about his ability to hear? Assuming your not making two perception tests. Sneaky McSneaksalot makes his roll. Visually Bob doesnt stand a hope in hell of seeing him. But what about hearing him? Well Bob could be blind and that wouldnt matter. So lets set Bob back to normal: Bob now has 7 dice to 'hear' our intrepid runner. Bob is still 'distracted' by the noise from the party: -2 dice The sound is assumably not in the 'immediate vacinity' unless Sneaky McSneaksalot is trying to sneak right past him, rather than past him a little ways away.: -2 dice. Bob is now down to 3 dice for his hearing test. Bob is up to 6 dice if he's using R3 audio enhancement. Bob could also be 'distracted'. Paying more attention to the music from the party though, now that he can hear it properly due to the audio enhancement Bob is now down to 4 dice. Of course things could go poorly for Sneaky McSneaks alot. Bob could get a warning on the radio that Sneaky is out there! Bob suddenly is not distracted Bob is suddenly actively searching! Bob now suddenly has: Perception: 7 Enhanced Audio R3: +3 Actively SErachign: +3 Interfering sound from the party: -2 Object/Sound not in immediate vacinity: -2 Bob is left with: 9 dice vs Sneaky McSneaks alot 8 or 9 dice. But really. The point at which Sneaky McSneaks alot is goign up against guards with that much additional gear. He's not going up agianst 'standard security' anymore. "Standard" security does it on the cheap. Their not going to fork out all sorts of cash for all these fun enhancements. And unless Bob is one of those rare exceptions that takes his job a little too seriously (And most run of the mill sec guards that I've worked with really dont) he's not about to fork out thousands of dollars out of his yearly 24K give for take a few thousand a year salary to buy the stuff himself. Afterall on that kind of wage hes only living at best a 'low' lifestyle. The rent of a yearly moderate lifestyle is well out of his reach at a whooping 60k a year. Hell.. given that he's only making 24k a year.. guess what? Thats -just- enough to keep in in a yearly low lifestyle. Chances are? Unless he's splitting the rent he's actually in: Squatter lifestyle. Which at elast gives him money to spend on stuff he wants or needs. Like... a car to get to work. Of course this is where the Sprawl Survival Guide's 'modifiers' come into play. What you'd really be looking at is Bob is living in cheap shithole for rent every month and barely making his monthly payments. That or he's living in a 'regular' lifestyle by splitting the costs of living with some one. Like Oboe his gay lover troll. |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Jan 16 2007, 09:39 AM
Post
#52
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
SR3 dice mechanics were screwed up beyond repair:
- the system did not scale, but break down at high ratings - test with pool and tests without pool were completely uncompareable - breakdown at 7, 13, 19 and so on - even a +1 modifier (the smallest modifier possible) had tremendous consequences SR4 dice mechanics scale well, are unified and smooth, and make small modifiers possible |
|
|
|
|
Jan 16 2007, 10:19 AM
Post
#53
|
|||
|
Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
I like the fact that attributes become more important when trying a task (using a skill). It never felt right to me that a sucker with charisma 1 could be as good as in negotiation like a charisma-god with charisma 6, when both have the same skill rating. I think it's a good decision to lean SR4 towards nWoD in the game mechanics. After all, the RPG industry is on the decline and less new players come every year. A lot of them will start with d20 or NWoD, so trying to convert some of them to SR4 by pointing out its cool background and the use of the same game mechanics as in the world of darkness is a clever thing imo. Sticking to the old school ruleset of SR3 can be ok for fans, but not for the company. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 16 2007, 11:53 AM
Post
#54
|
|||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Amazingly badly. This discussion has been had dozens of times—just take a look at what happens when your dice pool gets really big. ~J |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 16 2007, 12:52 PM
Post
#55
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Thats the modifiers that do not scale, not the mechanics per se.
If they introduced modifiers that divided the dice pool, they would scale perfectly. Mechanics are, for example an opposed test. In SR3, a Rating 4 vs Rating 4 test, would yield 2 hits each, or 50% of the rating a Rating 10 vs Rating 10 test would yield 0.83 hits each, or 8% of the rating In SR4, a Rating 4 vs Rating 4 test, would yield 1.33 hits each, or 1/3 of the rating a Rating 10 vs Rating 10 test would yield 3.33 hits each, or 1/3 of the rating conclusion: High level opposed test in SR3 took forever. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 16 2007, 02:28 PM
Post
#56
|
|||||||||
|
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
You're upset because the near-impossible is near-impossible? Or is the problem that the slightly more near-impossible is significantly more impossible?
Then use pools. I'm not sure why you're upset that people who use their pools properly will succeed more often. I find dice pools to be an excellent method of adding tactical depth to the game specifically because someone who uses his pool correctly will outperform someone with more skill but who wastes his pools.
'hiccup' is more accurate. I've never had a player complain that, gosh-darn, he has to roll a 7 and it's no more difficult than rolling a 6.
The ability to modify the number of dice rolled and the TN results in a greater degree of fine scalability, and a +1 to the TN is not as tremendous as +1 die at lower levels. I will agree that the fact Shadowrun uses a d6 instead of a larger die is at times difficult because there's a natural limit in how small a shift in difficulty can be, and because you quickly run into exploding dice which is a notable hiccup in the probability curve. But I have found the mechanics themselves to be more comfortable and sensible than SR4. There are plenty of threads comparing the two, however, and I think it would be better to reserve a full discussion for them. |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Jan 16 2007, 02:41 PM
Post
#57
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Again, the point remains simple. The number of people who tried, played, tested SR4 and afterwards went back to SR3 speaks for itself. No need for the SR4ers to go proving how great the system is. The fact so many SR4ers went back to being SR3ers says enough.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 16 2007, 02:54 PM
Post
#58
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
What numbers do you have access to that lead you to make a blanket statement like that? What exact percentage of former SR3 players have tried SR4 and then reverted?
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 16 2007, 02:56 PM
Post
#59
|
|||||||||||||||||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I dont like people that do not think before they are posting, but well, I will reply anyways so that others wont make the same mistake:
Read my post above for knowing what I mean by "breaking down at high ratings".
Think. There are lots of tests where no pool applies! You can not use any pool with a negotiation test.
Well, I complain. And there is no such word as gosh. The word you are looking for is god.
The number of dice rolled is never modified in SR3. The lower levels you are talking about are 3 dice.
They may feel more comfortable to you, but from an objective point of view they are certainly not more sensible. |
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Jan 16 2007, 03:03 PM
Post
#60
|
|||||||||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
100% of true Scotsme… SR3 players.
It was nonsensical. A difficult task expects few successes. Somehow this is a problem?
Tell me about it. ~J |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Jan 16 2007, 03:16 PM
Post
#61
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
All the players in my local area, and the people who have stated as much on these boards. The fact that there are people right here on this thread showing how much better they believe SR3 is. None of that happened when SR2 or SR3 came out. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 16 2007, 03:19 PM
Post
#62
|
|||||||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
No, we are talking about scaling. I will try to explain it the long way: Imagine two humans of equal strength. If the scaling of the system is OK, the result of an opposed strength test will be the same, relative to the strength rating, no matter what rating you will give both, or in other words, what you set as your baseline (in SR it is 3). In SR3 this is not the case. If you set both ratings to 12, most of the time both of them will not achieve any success at all. This case actually occured in SR2 matrix fights with high programme ratings. Fights took forever because both the number of dice rolled could not keep up with the target number of the opposed test. A strength tests between two rating 5 humans can be handled by SR3, a fight between two strength 40 dragons can not (they will never ever achieve a hit with even 40 dice, the dice numbers just do not scale to the target number). Same goes for spell tests and all other opposed tests in SR3. In SR4, the scaling is right. You could give both a strength rating of 100, and the result would be the same, relative to their rating, if you took 10 or 3. This is what scaling means. And SR3 has bad scaling.
I am aware of this. And it is one of the most blatant cases of bigotry Ive ever seen. If you dont want to use god in your language, dont use it. Dont invent silly extra words that mean god but are not spelled exactly like this. If god cared about spelling and not the intent. . . |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Jan 16 2007, 03:21 PM
Post
#63
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Reread that last link, specifically "minced oaths as humor".
Response to the other bit later. ~J |
|
|
|
|
Jan 16 2007, 03:27 PM
Post
#64
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
As if "gosh" was invented to make humorous comments . . .
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 16 2007, 03:33 PM
Post
#65
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It wasn't. Neither were homophones. Miraculously, people still manage to use them for those purposes.
~J |
|
|
|
|
Jan 16 2007, 03:36 PM
Post
#66
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
This would happen with any game system change. Some folks don't like change, some don't like specific systems, and some like to dip their toes in and then walk away. Certainly some of this is from SR4 being perceived as worse than SR3 by those players, but a lot of it is just that it's a different game system. You'd likely get similar results if you released Cyberpunk 2030 as SR 5. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 16 2007, 03:45 PM
Post
#67
|
|
|
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Heh. That might rock. Then all those CP to SR gear conversion PDFs I've got would be "official" (not that their lack of that status keeps me from using them :D).
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 16 2007, 04:01 PM
Post
#68
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
See, everything has an up side. :)
My point is just that depending on where you read, you might think that vast numbers of people stuck with AD&D instead of 3.0, and therefor 3.0 is a horrible system. Looking at one website filled to the brim with long time fans of a system isn't much of a place to start. I'd suggest looking at actual sales figures instead, and from what (very little) I understand sales for SR4 are still good. If a game blows major chunks you don't tend to sell a lot of its supplements, but Street Magic apparently did well. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 16 2007, 04:05 PM
Post
#69
|
|||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
WoD was a market leader. ~J |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 16 2007, 04:16 PM
Post
#70
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
James, I'll not play SR4 again most likely, but I'll still buy the books. Anyhows, I bought Street Magic because I thought it would improve the game, it was a bigger let-down to me than the game itself.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 16 2007, 04:24 PM
Post
#71
|
|||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Why? ~J |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 16 2007, 04:28 PM
Post
#72
|
|||||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
So apparently, despite your tastes, the game in general isn't considered to blow chunks. One opinion (or even 30) is far from damning evidence. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 16 2007, 04:38 PM
Post
#73
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Kag: I'm a collector. Only shadowrun book I don't own is Sprawl Maps. :P
James: The game doesn't suck, SR4 is a good game, It just doesn't compare to SR3 in quality, in my opinion. When I would list my favorite all time games, SR3 was always the very top of my list followed my Ars Magica. SR4, while not 'blowing chunks' isn't even in the top 20. It's mediocre. It's ok if you're into the genre, but SR3 is better. I'd still play SR4 before playing one of the D20 attempts at cyber-magic genre. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 16 2007, 04:41 PM
Post
#74
|
|||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
There's a difference between what is considered and what is true. Let's just pretend we actually went through the rest of this discussion. I think we've had it enough times to do that :) ~J |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 16 2007, 04:53 PM
Post
#75
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Sure, as long as I get the last word in: Nuh-uh!!!!! Neener neener neener!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 21st August 2025 - 02:16 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.