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> Full Conversion Cyborgs, or Brain Transfers
WhiskeyMac
post Jan 10 2007, 11:59 PM
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The FAQ brought up an interesting question in my mind for full cyber body characters, a.k.a. cyborgs. The FAQ states that these characters aren't encouraged because of the essence lost but Augmentation will provide some rules for cyborgs.

The question I have is what about brain transfers from a metahuman body to a fully integrated (i.e. built as one whole cohesive unit) cyberbody? Is that even possible and would the essence be less than if you bought each piece separately?

I'm thinking in the terms that the cyberbody would function like those from Ghost in the Shell. Replacing the character's with a more powerful and agile body that can also take more damage and even replace body functions for the character. I'm having a brain fart right now so everything is there but not coming together. :)

Does this sound like a good idea or would it unbalance the game?
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Konsaki
post Jan 11 2007, 12:03 AM
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Probably make a good NPC or badguy, but for a PC... Naw. At least thats my opinion.
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Ophis
post Jan 11 2007, 12:03 AM
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Depends on how the rules for it work.

Personnally I like the ideas and hope they're fairly nails but penalised in interesting ways, such as healing being imposiible (but you can repair), and a few just plain weird ones (can't think of any right now consider it homework).
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Butterblume
post Jan 11 2007, 12:07 AM
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A few days ago I thought I'll probably start a save-the-world campaign, using something like the Cybermen from Doctor Who. Not that obvious and not that numerous, of course ;).

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otakusensei
post Jan 11 2007, 12:22 AM
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By the rules you can get a cyber skull and cyber toso but they are stated as being shells that house all the important bits.

Still no way, short of Cybermancy 2.0 (Coming Soon!), to get rid of the eat and poop routine.
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WhiskeyMac
post Jan 11 2007, 12:37 AM
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With deltaware you could get the essence cost down to around 3.125 for the shell versions of the cyberskull/torso and the limbs. I'd say probably about 4.5 essence or so for a fully integrated cyberbody that simulates all the necessary functions of the normal metahuman body.

Of course for any of this you're looking at a price of 9 million for just the shell versions. Full cyberbody would probably run about 12 million or so. Chump change :D
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Banaticus
post Jan 11 2007, 01:35 AM
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So, possibly, you might have a cyberzombie that still has essence and could possibly learn to cast magic. Or, possibly, that might still require that the cyberzombie be possessed by a spirit, a la those Shadowrun novels. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
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Ancient History
post Jan 11 2007, 01:40 AM
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QUOTE (Banaticus)
I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Waiting and seeing is good. Not as fun as pointless and indulgent speculation, but good.
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Catharz Godfoot
post Jan 11 2007, 02:47 AM
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CODE

Full Cyborg | Ess|Cap|Ava|Cost
Skull  |0.75| 4 | 16| 10k
Cybereyes 4 | 0.5| 16| 8 | 1.5k
Cyberears 4 | 0.5| 16| 8 | 1.5k
Torso  | 1.5| 10| 12| 20k
2*Full arm |  2 | 15| 4 | 30k
2*Full leg |  2 | 20| 4 | 30k
Base totals: |7.25| 81| 16| 93k
Alpha totals: | 5.8| 81| 16|186k
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hobgoblin
post Jan 11 2007, 02:58 AM
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crank it to delta and build the XX million nuyen runner :P

problem is that it will most likely fail vs a cheaper runner with combos of cyber and bio that augment rather then replace...
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Wakshaani
post Jan 11 2007, 03:22 AM
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I'm tellin' you, cool as they are, you're better off with rigged fleshform robots.

"This time for sure!"

*KABOOM*

"Ah FRAK! It was another RoxBot!"

*chuckling* "Sorry, dear runners, but Dr Roxburough isn't so easy to catch!"

*gasp!* "Thomas Roxburough!
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Banaticus
post Jan 11 2007, 04:24 AM
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He'll at least need a chemical analyzer in a cyber tongue and a cyber nose so that he isn't missing senses that are rather crucial (IMHO) to enjoying a good life.
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hyzmarca
post Jan 11 2007, 04:27 AM
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Remember, cutting things off does not cost essence. If you want to go full-borg, the best method is to just keep your nervous system separate from the borg body and control it using a VR interface. With SR4 technology it can be done without any essence loss at all.

In other words, be a brain-the-a-jar rigger.
And yes, the technology to keep brains alive in jars does exist in SR canon.
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Ravor
post Jan 11 2007, 04:48 AM
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Yeah but didn't Dr H's babies only have a lifespan of ~6 months or so?
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otakusensei
post Jan 11 2007, 06:32 AM
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Don't forget Thomas Roxburough as mentioned above.

Wouldn't removing the brain, even by surgical means, be the equivalent of a massively deadly wound which you can suffer essence loss from? Are you really your brain, or is that only part of "You". How much of "You" needs to be left to maintain that presence. That's what essence is essentially.

Even Tommy R dissolved into a tank I believe, his "body" as it was, was still present. Or am I missing something. It could also be a plot point thing, just like the fact that you can't roll an immortal elf. Which is a bit of a cop out, especially when your planning on going shopping for a shiny new ass.
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Teulisch
post Jan 11 2007, 12:25 PM
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I would sugest we would need a 'bionic conversion' mod, which presents seperate rule for dealing with essence loss via implants. First it permenantly reduces essence/magic to zero, and then it replaces essence with a different stat. grade of ware would affect this stat.

You can do it, just not with the rules as written. a proper cyborg will need to be able to have unlimited numbers of cyber-implants, but with bioware would be limited only to certain bioware that affect the brain and organs not replaces with cyber.

essence with its 'too much cyber and you die' rule exists to both keep players in check long-run, and to likewise keep the corps from going over the top too much.

If we want this as a playable archtype, instead of just a pricey thing you cant afford, then it needs to be an advantage instead of just equipment.
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otakusensei
post Jan 11 2007, 04:05 PM
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Cybermancy filled that role in allowing you to go beyond normal essence limits. I was always glad Hatchetman's account in the book kept my players from asking for it...
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WhiskeyMac
post Jan 12 2007, 12:53 AM
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I was thinking along the lines of Cyberpunk 2020 with their full-conversion cyborgs but without the extreme powergaming element. I just find it interesting that so many are willing to have magicians with unlimited power but mundanes are completely fucked once they reach their caps.

I like Teulisch's idea for a different stat that doesn't allow any Awakening ability whatsoever. Something that doesn't require cybermancy. With deltaware you could make someone with a full bionic/cyber body that has wired reflexes 2 or even move-by-wire 2 (when they re-introduce it), an implanted commlink, cyberears 4, cybereyes 4 and several other cyber-implants stay under 6 essence. It would be very pricey but it's possible.

My question is mostly if it would be possible for the corps (or an independent) to create a fully integrated bionic body that replaces the user's body without the need for cybermancy or magic in any form? And if possible, could they make that body mimic bodily functions? Or even make it so bodily functions are no longer required?

I'm just finding it hard to believe that the only way to create a death machine cyborg is by using the one thing that cyber shouldn't or doesn't mix with - magic. Just my personal opinion I guess.
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Catharz Godfoot
post Jan 12 2007, 01:16 AM
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If I wanted to house-rule full cyborgs into existance, I'd just remove the bit about dying when your Essence hits zero.

Cybermancy is cool, but in the end all it does is makes the character who you tried to keep mundane into an awakened freak with a tendancy to die at the slightest provocation.
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Garrowolf
post Jan 12 2007, 09:56 AM
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I have included cyborgs in my game already.

I use a biopod conversion that covers the juicy bits inside. It removes most of the intestine and digestive track limiting them to eating food paste. They have a few bioware organs to cover the lack of platelet generation with no bones and such. They have much less blood volume in the first place. They also have a biomonitor and trauma control system in there as well.

The process gets rid of nearly all of their essence but I don't bother to track it. They effectively have close to zero and can never use magic.

They have a computer in them that makes them work. Their mechanical systems are treated as a drone body but it is integrated in VR so they feel like they are moving their own body instead of remotely directing an Anthroform. The computer integrates all their senses and acts as a router.

Any features beyond basic movement are routed through the computer into a VR HUD that they can mentally access at VR speeds. Basically they can access their own systems at VR speeds but they react at normal but fairly fast physical speeds. This replaces most of the DNI essence draining features. Basically you have the essence loss for the bioware and the rigger interface but your drone body has all the other features that eat up essence.

The internal router can add programs to become a tactical computer as well. It can even store skill softs since I don't think skillwires would be needed in that set up. It is accessed seperately then their commlink and they are not tied together. The internal router can be accessed through a hardwire datajack for updates and medical access. You don't want your military Cyborg easily hackable. They can still communicate but their router is not vulnerable.

They are used as highly mobile Heavy Infantry on a military scale and they require a lot of upkeep. Some megacorps have them as heavy security as well. They are intended to be very dangerous enemies and a good reason to take pause before hitting a megacorp facility.




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Kesslan
post Jan 12 2007, 10:17 AM
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Bah, thats when you lock and load AV rounds into assault cannons!
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Garrowolf
post Jan 12 2007, 10:47 AM
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Well an assault cannon will open most things.

As an asside I treated the body and the person as different health tracks. You have to target a certain area to hit the biopod.
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NightmareX
post Jan 12 2007, 10:59 AM
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QUOTE (WhiskeyMac @ Jan 11 2007, 07:53 PM)
My question is mostly if it would be possible for the corps (or an independent)  to create a fully integrated bionic body that replaces the user's body without the need for cybermancy or magic in any form? And if possible, could they make that body mimic bodily functions? Or even make it so bodily functions are no longer required?

Yes. Did it in 3rd edition to make a Ghost Rider 2099-esqe character using deltaware (in a similar fashion to what Garrowolf described). Worked rather well, but it was a bad idea ultimately - basically a killing machine with little viability as a long term character.
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Kesslan
post Jan 12 2007, 11:05 AM
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Reminds me of one guy on a MUSH that went the full con route in CG. Did it all with lower grade, obvious ware. He played the char out for a while and with the hook that he just wanted to 'be real again'. Eventually ended up scratching togeather enough for cloned parts to rebuild his meatbod, while still upgrading himself to fun things like betaware.

It wasnt an uberpowerful full borg, just a sort of basic one. Played the obvious cyberskull as not even having a moving mouth, just a sort of 60's robot mouth slit.
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bait
post Jan 12 2007, 12:47 PM
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Give it some time guys, the cyberware book isn't even out yet. :)
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