[X] My Assistant

[emo samurai]

They're epic and dangerous, but not depressing. What about you?

[Kesslan]

Well I assume you mean as a GMed game. Me? I try to go for realism.

You murder some sec guard. You might get away with it a few times. Eventually some one will track you down and either try to kill you or put you in jail.

I tend to try to go for more action and 'epic' storyline at times. Its hard to say though. SR lends itself so very well to so many things. Also to me 'Epic' is really a scaled thing. Fighting an adult dragon surely is an 'epic' thing in SR. But so is ganger who fights his way up the ranks to become gang leader, changes the way the gang acts, gains more control and influence. And then uses that influence for good or evil. At the more 'epic' level you wind up fighting off the mob, other larger gangs and so forth.

I mean to me the way the SR world works for example even just doing a run in space. Doesnt matter what that run even is, is 'epic'. It's such a harsh, unforgiving atmosphere before you even have enemies to fight as it is. And it's the sort of thing only one in several hundred million people will ever get to actualy do durring your life time.

[emo samurai]

My stories won't all be "Dude, I fought a dragon" epic. Like, one of them will be, maybe. Most of the "epic" storylines will be centered around doing things important to the characters. I think my definition of epic actually matches your definition of epic.

[Kesslan]

But why no depressing? Thats like.. the antithesis of Dysetopian! Which is what SR is all about!

Look at you! Your a runer! Yesss.. you are. And what's that your eating? Soy an Krill again! WOoohoo!

Oh look and your friend billy is now a BTL addict. And so is mom. She's also turned to prostitution and booze.

[Sphynx]

Heh, Kesslan, that sounds horrible for a story. Emo, our stories are aventures worthy of being written about. In our current game, we're the Elite Force for the new Denver Peace Keeping force, all with Diplomatic Immunity. We mostly investigate paranormal activity due to GhostWalker's obsession with unique spirits, of course, putting us directly against certain underground Aztlan types. Who's got time for bothering with wah-wah stories like family members being BTL addicts or who's eating Soy this evening? There's a reason you never see good novels with a chapter on how horrible the food was, and details on the pooping session afterwards... That stuff's boring. :P

[Kesslan]

LOL yeah but think of the character hooks?

Here you are this big bad mega successful runner. Then you find out Mom is into the booze and beatles. Then comes along Mr.J.

Mr J: Say... I heard about your... family problems. Ontop of offering you 20,000 :nuyen: for this job. We would be willing to.... assist you with your problems.
Runner: What's the catch?
Mr J: You have to agree to be on retainer for us. Think about it. Mom can be happy again. We'll get her all the best care. A nice place to live... All you have to do is work only for us. Thats it. No other strings attached.

[Kesslan]

Ohh! ANd to make it worse.

They'll try to get you to do a job you dont like and hold dear old mom as 'incentive' over your head. Afterall... we wouldnt want dear old mommy to have an accident now would we?

So then you gotta get mom out from under the clutches of the Megas and also explain to her just why exactly your taking away all this shiny new stuff she's gotten used to having.

[Trigger]

[ErrosCallidus]

I'm with you K. The gittier the game the more SR is "real." The gap between the 'have's' and 'have not's' in the SR 2070 is so huge that even a really successful runner will still not look like he's doing well compared to a lifetime wage slave. Though, as in real life, it's easy for anybody to overlook the squlor and general hoplessness of the majority of the world so long as "me and mine" are taken care of. If the only time you char sees somebody being raped is on the trid's then it won't be "real" to the char until it's thier sister. Which leads to my second caveat.

The type of game you wind up playing will reflect your particular tastes/definition of 'epic'/maturity level and what you want to experience in the SR world. (Just like RL!! :D ) You can run the slums or shoot high and be a uber-cool GSG-9 operative. The happy thing in SR is you don't have to actually 'work your way out of the gutter' you can choose your background pretty easily. For my tastes I prefer SR to be gritty and real. As described by Kesslan. :S

[Kesslan]

Verry well Just for you ErrosCallidus I give you your gritty background!

You: Are an ork!

Dad: Dad is a mild acoholic wageslave. He doesnt admit to his drinking problems either, and he's a mean drunk. Allways comes home from work and has a shot of synthrum. And synthwine at dinner.

Mom: Mom used to work, used to be a hard workign waitess. These days she's a burnout. Goes out withotu speaking to family for hours on end. SOme times doenst come home till the morning. Usually drunk. You've also just recently learned that not only is she using this 'away time' to get her BTL fix. But she's lately been cheating on dad with.. well your not sure just how many men. There's hints that she's actually selling herself out to help pay for ther BTL addiction.

Your gay younger brother was recently murdered by some Humanis punks. And your desire for revenge is part of what helped drive you into the shadows.

Your sister Bethany pretty much just keeps to herself. And is a flat out heavy goigng angsty gothgirl. SHe's deifnately played around with a few 'recreational' drugs and hangs out with questinoable guys. But doesnt seem to be 'really' hurting herself. SHe's getting by somehow dispite her big fights with mom and dad.

Also your cat fluffikins has recently dissapeared. There's hints that.. oddly enough your goldfish may have eaten him.

[Sphynx]

Nothing wrong with the scenario you laid out Kesslan, especially if someone bought the dependant flaw. I wasn't talking about that, because I wouldn't consider that sort of story 'depressing'.

[Sphynx]

That's not a gritty background, that's a sob story. I hate soap-opera games, in our games, you could write up a background like that, but it wouldn't factor into most of the games at all. O.o

[Kesslan]

Ehh.. yes and no. Thing is what is 'grit'? 'Grit' is the sob stories. What's a sob story? Personal hardships. What are hardships? 'Grit'. Thus Grit is the sobstories, the sobstories are grit.

You can certainly overdo it. But asside from the whole gold fish eating the cat thing. You could very well wind up with a family like that in SR. It happens clsoe enough in RL afterall.

[Sphynx]

That's the problem. I recognize and accept that alot of people, especially since the advent of the World of Darkness game, go for a 'realistic' approach to the game. However, I play games to not simulate RL. My character can fly, move things with his mind, and lives in a world where dragons and elves are common place. Sure, you can focus on the negative side if that's what it takes for you to tell a story. Us, we're gonaa focus on the other side of things. The actual Runs and adventures. To each his own though, I don't need to dwell on your family defects to tell an awesome shadowrun story.

[Konsaki]

The difference between Grit and Sobstory is very small.

Kesslan does have a good basic background for both right there, but to really determine which one it is depends on how the game/story plays out.

If the character is all crying and angsty over the tough world and all it threw at him, but doesnt do anything, its a sob story.
If the character goes, 'Damn, my life sucks... I need to change something and I think I'll do this to change it', it's Grit.

At least that's my take on it.

[Sphynx]

Actually, 'grit' deals with hardship. Having a brother killed can be grit. Making him gay makes it a sob story. Mom working hard to make ends meet and being dependant on something like alcohol is grit. Selling her body makes it a sob story. At least in my opinion.

[Konsaki]

So you just think his backstory is 'over the top'...

[Sphynx]

Yes, and I think the manner it was done makes it a sob story. When the objective is to make the reader feel sorry for more than the character. Not only did he endure his brother's death, but his poor brother endured gay persecution. Not only did he endure a hard life due to limited income, but feel sorry for his mom who is making a slut out of herself. It's more than just 'over the top', it's a sob story.

[Kesslan]

Ehh. The brother being gay doesnt have a thing to do with it being a 'sob story'. This is shadowrun remember? Gay is just as normal and every day as 'straight'. It's public. It's not the least bit 'taboo' in the world of SR.

The fact that he's gay in SR simply defines the sort of friends he was likely to have. Friends that might want to help you get revenge or something. Friends who, like your now deceased brother are probably also gay for at least part of it. It might not under SR be 'taboo' and it might be totally acceptable. But it still is a sort of different 'social circle' than if he was straight.

So where exactly did this gay persecution come in? No one cares that he's gay. And while the example is 'over the top.' Again. Some times life really is like that to one degree or another. One guy I was friends with in highschool. His parents were both washed up druggies. His sister was this sort of 'typical goth girl'.

He started to get into harder drugs and we slapped em about and gave him a hard time over it so he went back to pot. Did a few years in the military and sort of sorted his life out since. He still hasnt made much of his life, probably never will. But thats reality for you.

Course even your 'usual' poor family doesnt have qutie so much of a stacked deck. But if there's one problem there's usually quite a few.

[Sphynx]

[Edit]Never mind[/Edit]

[Kesslan]

I do agree with you Sphynx that not everyone wants the same type of game as another. Dont get me wrong. I love a big blazing action scene as much as anyone else. But I ALSO very much enjoy the social interaction side of RPGs.

I like my NPCs and PCs to actually 'feel alive'. Have their own motivations etc. I will some times go 'over the top'. Simply so that tehre's a more likely chance I can find something to use as a plot hook down the road.

[Kesslan]

Oh god, this discussion does remind me of one thing one GM I had used to do. He gave us this 'eccentric' fixer. And by god he was.

My first run in with this character was the usual call up about a job. And I'd allready been given the background that he was an 'eccentric' and so on and prefered 'eccentric things'. So when I got asked did I want a staright up or 'eccentric' job... I sadly chose the latter.

So i'm went sort of like this (I'm making most of this up, some pulling from memory but it should give you a good idea).

I went out the door, headed on over to X street. There I met a man with a baguette and a dirt bike. I then had to take the dirt bike over yonder hill, pass it on to some other guy who woudl be there, and take his car. Drive the car on out to such and such a place. Pick up an onvelope that was under a rock of a specific tree. Then follow those directions to another car. Swap cars, find more instructions under the seat. Drive to X location. Leave the car in a public parking lot. HOp a bus down to Y street. Go into a vidphone booth, pick up a note taped underneath it. Then go to the bar it indicated.

So I get there to find otu of course everyone else 'took the normal route'. And just went straight from home to this downtown bar to meet wtih him in person.

Heh.

In the end the Fixer DID do alot more favours for me etc than he ever would for anyoen else. But buy god I started dreading his 'eccentric' ideas.

[Sir_Psycho]

That's... the coolest thing ever.

Grit is just how the gamesmaster tells the story, it's in the descriptive language, it's what you do to stop this being a PG 13 action movie with the dude with the cool robotic arm and the pretty girl who casts fireballs at the big bad guy.

For instance, when we find a dead body, "you find a dead body, there's some blood", or we chuck on an extra 4 to the target number so we can go for that super cool headshot, there-by staging up damage one level and negating armor bonus. Oh check it, 4 successes! Staged to D! Yep, so we describe it as "he's dead before he hits the ground."

An example of how I handle "grit" is in the descriptions. On a Stealth Adept (Vaziel) I gm's way through a subway/sewer system, the waft or rust and blood toouched his nostrils. Upon further inspection, the body of a maintenance worker lay, ribcage jutting out from a torn and bloodied uniform, his dead eyes staring past Vaziel. As Vaziel realised he was standing in a pool of "John"'s viscera, he span at a noise, to see the milky eyes of a ghoul staring at him, blood caked his face. Vaziel's pistol was out in front of him and he pulled the trigger. The bullet caught the ghoul in the throat, sending him crashing to the ground at Vaziels feet. The ghoul was as good as dead, aside from the gurgling noises as the blood bubbled from the hole in his neck, and the clumsy clutching at Vaziels boot. Vaziel took aim and fired into the ghoul. The twitching stopped.

Take the time to describe the harsh world of Shadowrun, and try not to paint things too black and white.

[Kesslan]

Totally. But thats why in the end I allways will prefer a good MUSH game to pen and paper. You can just get... so much more discriptive. I mean yeah.. you can do it vocally too. But for me it's alot harder to do than typing up a good paragraph or two to describe my own actions, or those of others.

[Kagetenshi]