What would the world look like without the NAN? Options

[Ravor]

I was wondering what people thought the Sixth World would look like in 2070 if the Ghost Dance hadn't won the war and the United States had survived intact.

[emo samurai]

Hmmm... I'm thinking, war with Japan? Or maybe not. I mean, they probably wouldn't have gone after California if it was still the USA.

[mfb]

more likely, war with Aztlan. but how intact do you mean? no TT at all? Cali is still a state?

[Kagetenshi]

Much less interesting.

~J

[Sir_Psycho]

If not another war with japan, I think the awakened british empire might have come to reclaim the land that the yankees swindled them of. ARGH! REDCOATS.

As for the motherland, I bet if Uluru turned into solid orichalcum, some-one might take some notice of us!

[Kagetenshi]

Dude, when your continent gets less deadly instead of much, much more, then some 'Runners might be convinced to actually go there.

~J

[Demonseed Elite]

If I had to design Shadowrun's North America without the NAN, I'd swing to the opposite extreme. Instead of a balkanized and neutered United States, I'd look towards a totalitarian government barely disguising itself as democracy. Today's world (un)fortunately gives a lot of inspiration for that. Between the world powers of the United States, the Japanese Imperial State, and Aztlan, I'd make the American west coast a hotbed for the shadow community and less controlled than the rest of North America.

[Sir_Psycho]

Also, there could have been another American Civil war, that resulted in the CAS/UCAS split regardless of the Great Ghost Dance and the treaty of Denver.

But personally, I love the whole NAN thing, I think it's damn cool and original, and couldn't have been done in traditional cyberpunk, as Native Americans wouldn't have had the power to do it without magic.

[Ravor]

Kay, now my understanding is that the Mana Spike generated by the Ghost Dance not only allows the Horrors to come through early, it also increased the natural Mana Level throughout the world right? The reason that I'm asking is because I'm thinking about pushing back the appearance of 'true' magic/meta-humans while still keeping the 2011 Timeline for the start of the Sixth Age. (As an aside, I.E.s either went to sleep like the Dragons or relied on some serious Blood Magic in order to keep their personal Mana Levels high enough to survive, and so are some pretty twisted nut-jobs.)

Now, how do people think Canada would respond to a semi-right-leaning totalitarian state on their Southern Border, especially if Alaska decided to try to cede? (Yes, I already know that I'm going to get at least one Bush joke out of this question, but what the hey. *winks*)

[hyzmarca]

If the GGD never happened (which only requires removing one half-horror from the picture) then the United States and Canada, working together, would have committed the single worst act of genocide ever, systematically executing all every person with so much as a drop of native blood on the Continent of North America.

It is likely that the two countries would still merge in some form.Once your committed the single greatest act of genocide ever with someone there is really no where to go from there except merging.

[Cray74]

[lorechaser]

Where as I think that, given our current situation, and the fact that it's a dystopian future, the balkanization is far more appropriate. We've seen that countries are far more likely to segment than to unite. I don't think anyone's talking about the possibility of Iraq and Iran being Iranq, but it's more possible that Iraq will become Shiraq, Suniraq and Iraq....

[hyzmarca]

[SL James]

Wow, that's a Hell of a question. I mean, you may as well be asking, "What if Alexanders's/The Roman/The Holy Roman Empires or the Third Reich had survived intact." Harry Turtledove has written volumes of alternate history stemming from much smaller flashpoints. The entire world would be different, not least of all because the United States that signed the Treaty of Denver is a much different United States than RL 2007 (which is something that certain authors in SoNA seem to have completely ignored or not realized). The U.S. in SR never became the global superpower it is now. It never reached a point where the Defense Authorization Act exceeded $400 billion in one fiscal year. To the contrary, it immediately went towards the opposite extreme (although in this instance, similar to what occured in the early 1990s) of slashing the DoD budget by 40%. When the Cold War ended (which is a major retcon from SR1, so let's assume everything from SR2-on is kosher. Working from that one would just make everything even more difficult), it completely disengaged from the world, and never re-engaged the world as a superpower, even to its own detriment. This is a U.S. where a Teamsters strike was not only tolerated by a supposed archconservative, but where it reached such a crisis that there were food riots in New York City. This is a U.S. that was controlled by the Club for Growth—whole agencies, federal corporations, and even a Constitutionally-mandated government service (USPS) were privatized as the government let corporations run roughshod over it because, well, why not? By the time you even get to what would happen to the U.S. had the GGD failed or otherwise not caused the government to surrender, it's already a different country. So, there are a couple of difference premises which determine what the government and country would look like. DE's probably closest to my own impressions, although I reject the notion that this country is edging towards a totalitarian state, nor would I inherently assume that somehow after 2018 that the US would once again become a global power. It only rose to that occassion when it did because it (and the USSR) were the only powers left standing at the end of World War 2. No event in SR has occured that would put the US back in that position (and, in fact, the Crash of '29 would further set it back), nor has there been anything to instigate a sudden desire to flex its power based solely on ideological reasons.

And this is yet one of the reasons why I'm so averse to the half-assed intent on injecting real life events into SR over the last five or six years, if for no other reason that it only happens when and how it is convenient for the author(s) to do so, rejecting any of the supposed understanding of the history of SR so that we can have al-Qaeda and a Yasser Arafat land bridge connect Gaza and the West Bank in Shadows of Asia when there is no reason to expect from all of SR's history that those two, among many other, events would occur given the time and place of when they would figure into SR. Do you honestly think for a moment that an arch-conservative isolationist would give a fuck about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Quick answer: No. Nor do I suppose said President would continue his predecessor's policy of maintaining thousands of soldiers in the region while gutting the military like a fish. But then again, it is the same region chapter that does not mention—not once—Israel's greatest ally, or what happened after said country decided to just give up and let Europe, specifically thtrough S-K (which has zero room to enter the Middle East given the other actors, but that's another story), re-enter and take what it fucked up the first time.

[Jeremiah Legacy]

[Kagetenshi]

[SL James]

[Kyoto Kid]

...hmmm, North America without the NAN. Interesting concept. In such a case, I would not see the USA and Canada merging into one nation. I could see a more NEEC type of alliance though. Alaska seceding? Yes they do have the oil reserves, but as an independent nation would not last long before someone like the New Soviet or Japan would look in their direction.

As to the type of government, I don't see the US becoming so much a totalitarian state as a more dispassionate one where policy is highly influenced by the various Megas (look at some of the powerful lobbies we have in RL).

Civil war? Possibly especially if US forces were weakened enough by the fight with the NAN. Though given that Aztlan would still become a major power broker, they may decide that safety in numbers is better. Keep in mind, the missile silos, largest bases, Ares, and Fed Boeing are in the north.

The one other thing I wonder about is, with the GGD failing, what would that do to magic? I would see the Awakened in the US being persecuted or at the very least highly restricted. Magic might be outlawed and casting of a spell a class A felony. Governments tend to react harshly towards a perceived greater threat. With the exception of some of the more showier combat spells, magic is more insidious and harder to detect and defend against. Look at the Red Scare of the last century, instead of "Godless Commies" we have "Godless Mages". A new type of witch hunt could ensue, this would put a new edge to being Awakened (see the Are Your Stories Depressing thread). It would be very easy to do a Telefon-like scenario with the right spells (I have already successfully run one).

I have to give this some more thought. Definitely an interesting campaign tangent.

[SL James]

[Moirdryd]

Sounds alot like RIFTS actually... and without the NAN, if the US went so totalitarian ect.... can anyone say The COALITION!

[hyzmarca]

What would the world be like if, instead of the Treaty of Denver, the USA and Canada signed an unconditional surrender, dismantled their militaries, and were occupied by Native Americans?

[Kesslan]

[MYST1C]

[SL James]

Wow, that's not cliche at all!

I just find it amusing how people so easily think that the United States can just cease to exist as it is, and that the entirety of the federal government is comrpised of people powerful, competent, and frankly evil enough to snap their fingers and make it happen without any serious counters by anyone in the government, or any of the states that give it power.

Goddamn statists.

[Kesslan]

What isnt Cliche these days? :D