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> Recoil In A Combat Pass, And Staging, Two questions: recoil and staging.
Dak
post Aug 18 2003, 04:04 PM
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Question 1- Does recoil modify all subsequent shots in the TURN or in the INITIATIVE PASS? According to the text, it seems as though recoil "resets" on the next initiative pass (assuming you act more than once in a turn), but I'm a little confused on the Combat Pass part.
So, Assuming I have rolled a 24 on my initiative this turn, and have an SMG capable of burst fire, and as a simple action on my pass, 24, I burst, taking 3 points of recoil mod. If I fire a second burst as my second simple action, I take another 3 penalty to my TN for recoil.
Now if on initiative 14 (my second pass this turn) I elect to fire another burst, am I back at a +3 to my TN for a burst, or am I now at +9 due to recoil?
Let me also say that (IMO) I think that realistically speaking, recoil penalties should only "reset" at the beginning of a combat turn, rather than every initiative pass. Anyone else have an opinion on this, in addition to a clarification?

Question 2- During ranged combat, how does staging up and down work? Again I am a bit confused by the text.
I'll go from the top, please tell me where I'm going wrong or misunderstanding.
I fire my 9M SA heavy pistol at my target. Lets assume I get 6 successes. The target has a chance to dodge with his combat pool. Lets assume he gets no successes from his dodge. Do I now stage the damage? Does this become 9D(+2), and the opponent has to get 4 successes just to stage down to Serious, or do the extra two go away, and he just has to get 2 successes on Damage Resistance to stage down to Serious?
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Game2BHappy
post Aug 18 2003, 04:17 PM
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QUOTE (Dak)
Question 2-
I fire my 9M SA heavy pistol at my target. Lets assume I get 6 successes.  The target has a chance to dodge with his combat pool. Lets assume he gets no successes from his dodge.  Do I now stage the damage?  Does this become 9D(+2), and the opponent has to get 4 successes just to stage down to Serious, or do the extra two go away, and he just has to get 2 successes on Damage Resistance to stage down to Serious?

The damage code you would give the opponent would be 9M+6 successes, not 9D+2 successes. It sounds trivial at first, but the way damage stages it can make big difference to the guy receiving the wound.

Since your target already did his dodge test, he now moves on to the Resistance Test. Every success he gets from this reduces the successes from the attack test. After this is done any remaining success stage the damage up or down one level for every two successes.

For example: 3 successes on the Resistance test
9M+6 becomes 9M+3
Damage stages up to S and the target takes a Serious wound.

Example: 8 successes on the Resistance test
9M+6 becomes 9M -2 successes
Damage stages down from M to L and the target takes a Light Wound.
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DigitalMage
post Aug 18 2003, 04:28 PM
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QUOTE
SR3 p102, The Initiative Pass
The number on which a character acts is called a Combat Phase.

QUOTE
SR3 p110, Recoil
Burst-fire weapons receive a +3 recoil modifier for each burst fired in that Combat Phase. [...] Full-autofire weapons add a cumulative +1 modifier for each round fired in that Combat Phase.


Recoil Modifiers reset on the character's next Combat Phase, not on the next Combat Turn. Therefore in your example the 3rd burst (in the 2nd Initiative Pass on 14) is at +3 TN, not +9 TN.

In terms of an opinion, I think it works okay that way, bearing in mind that the burst fire rules are already not too realistic (an all or nothing thing).

In terms of staging, for Ranged Combat, Damage Resistance has to cancel net successes before staging damage down, therefore in your example, you have hit with 6 net successes after dodge. If the defender only rolled 2 successes on his Damage Resistance test you would have 4 net successes after damage resistance and then you would stage damage up to Deadly.

This is clear from the fact that SR3 p113 shows Damage Resistance Test occuring before the Determine Outcome section, which includes Staging.

Note that this is not the same in melee combat, where SR3 p123 shows Determine Damage occuring before Damage Resistance Test.
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Dak
post Aug 18 2003, 04:43 PM
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Thanks for the clarifications, that helps greatly.
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hobgoblin
post Aug 18 2003, 09:36 PM
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not to start a debate but i find the sr way of handeling burstfire way more useful (not to talk about faster) then the way they do it in cyberpunk 2020 where you have to roll up the damage for every bullet and so on...
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Erchael
post Aug 18 2003, 10:29 PM
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On a related topic, how do you manage recoil from two weapons on burst mode?
Would it be +3 for the main hand and then +6 to the secondary hand (per total number of balls shot) or +3/+3 if first burst's recoil is compensated ?

Erchael
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Lilt
post Aug 19 2003, 12:39 AM
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The way burst fire is handled in SLA Industries is good too; one roll that determines if you hit (TN bonuses from huge amounts of lead) and another roll to see how many bullets hit (based on ability to control recoil) using a separate skill called Auto Support.

As for BF recoil from firing guns akimbo style:

If both weapons have full recoil compensation (GV-III or so) then firing 2 burst fires in a single simple action would result in no RC penalties for either arm.

If one weapon has full recoil compensation, but the other has none, then both shots would be at +3.

If neither weapon has any RC then both attacks are at +6.

Personally I'd allow them to fire one first (the one with the most RC) and then the other so that they aren't completely screwed (Ie: +3/+6 instead of +6/+6) but I think the numbers I gave above are correct by the reading of the rules.
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Fortune
post Aug 19 2003, 12:42 AM
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QUOTE (Erchael)
On a related topic, how do you manage recoil from two weapons on burst mode?
Would it be +3 for the main hand and then +6 to the secondary hand (per total number of balls shot) or +3/+3 if first burst's recoil is compensated ?

Assuming neither weapon has Recoil Compensation, and you are firing both as a Simple Action twice in the same phase, by canon recoil would be +6 for the first burst from each gun, and +12 for the second burst from each in the same phase, IIRC.

Uncompensated recoil transfers from one gun to the other when shooting with both hands.
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The White Dwarf
post Aug 19 2003, 05:57 AM
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An easier way of explaining recoil TN mods for someone weidling two firearms is to simply say: any uncompensated recoil (ie, any recoil that actually gives them a tn penalty) counts towards both shots.

So if you have 2 uziIIIs (i know, only good for using in this example, bleh!) that had gast vent 3 (3 pts of rc per gun) and were shooting all 4 shots on your turn at short range, it would look like this:

right hand, burst one, no recoil: tn 4
left hand, burst one, no recoil: tn 4
right hand, burst two, 3 recoil: tn 7
left hand, burst two, 3 recoil (for 6 total): tn 10

All clear?
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BitBasher
post Aug 19 2003, 07:08 AM
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One small point, that sequence is actually wrong White Dwarf...

Firing two guns the shots do not go:
1
2
3
4

they go:
1,2
3,4

Each pair of shots happen simultaneously. They occur on the same simple action. Under your example the recoul would be:
+0, +0
+6, +6

not
+0
+0
+3
+6

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Arethusa
post Aug 19 2003, 07:16 AM
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The only time recoil would apply to the second shot and not the first is in semi auto. For example, a player firing two Predator IIIs would get TNs as:

First Simple Action
Shot 1: 2
Shot 2: 3
Second Simple Action
Shot 1: 4
Shot 2: 5

With 1 point of recoil compensation, it'd become:
First Simple Action
Shot 1: 2
Shot 2: 2
Second Simple Action
Shot 1: 2
Shot 2: 3
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Lilt
post Aug 19 2003, 09:49 AM
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I'm not sure about those semi-automatic TNs. It depends on if you are counting-up each bullet fired for recoil or if each gun as a separate tally. Sure: Penalties are applied from one to the other but as there is no penalty from the first shot is it really applied to the second firearm? I'd probably say no though.

[edit]Also the base TN would be 4 not 2[/edit]

This post has been edited by Lilt: Aug 19 2003, 09:50 AM
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Arethusa
post Aug 19 2003, 09:53 AM
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QUOTE (Lilt)
I'm not sure about those semi-automatic TNs. It depends on if you are counting-up each bullet fired for recoil or if each gun as a separate tally. Sure: Penalties are applied from one to the other but as there is no penalty from the first shot is it really applied to the second firearm? I'd probably say no though.

[edit]Also the base TN would be 4 not 2[/edit]

There is a penalty for the first shot; it's simply applied after the shot has been fired because it's a single shot. If I fire a pistol single handed, my first TN to hit will be 2; after the recoil from that shot is applied, TN for my next shot is 3. Incidentally, I was counting Smartlink-2 for the base TN of 2.
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Lilt
post Aug 19 2003, 12:13 PM
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Point taken about the SA recoil penalty but the TN bonuses provided by smartlinks are negated when using a second firearm (P112 SR3)
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Arethusa
post Aug 19 2003, 03:54 PM
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Augh. Forgot about that. Haven't slept in quite a while.
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The White Dwarf
post Aug 19 2003, 09:29 PM
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Well, I suppose a GM might rule that the shots are fired 'simultaneously' but that makes it hard to choose secondary targets and such. The way Ive seen it done everywhere Ive encountered it, is the 1 2 3 4 method. It makes using combat pool, dodging, declaring targets, etc etc much easier than trying to do two shots at once. Either one would fit within the category of 'firing both guns with the same simple action'. Also, the rules say any uncompensated from one apply to the other ... if you go simultaneously one could argue that no recoil mod has been incurred since the shot hasnt happened yet, leaving you at 3s for shot 3,4 not 6s ... Just another angle on it.
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